Large Scale Central

Sneak Peak PIKO #38241 CNJ 2-6-0 Camelback Blue Comet

Greg Elmassian said:

The circuit board might cost $2 but not the components on it.

In the volumes we see, I would guess the microprocessor used is probably about $7-10 or so, and you have flash, dram, etc.

My guess is the decoder board in large scales has a manufacturing cost of about $10 - $15 for something simple like a Revo… that should add (rule of thumb for mfg cost is 5x) about $50 to $70 to the loco.

Greg

Yet they somehow figure that adding a $70 board now means a once $120 MSRP loco is now worth asking $345 MSRP, almost 3X the original price (using my old favorite example LGBs Porter). Piko’s Mogul non-sound/DCC had a street price of about $199, yet today’s version is $350 almost across the board, yet the only difference is the electronics, whats worse is that the camelback is $100 over that, I’m sure the Blue version will be about the same. But not having a basic option though really irks me off to no end.

Is it possible to get someone with experience of industrial costing into this discussion ?

Mike

Vic Smith said:

Greg Elmassian said:

The circuit board might cost $2 but not the components on it.

In the volumes we see, I would guess the microprocessor used is probably about $7-10 or so, and you have flash, dram, etc.

My guess is the decoder board in large scales has a manufacturing cost of about $10 - $15 for something simple like a Revo… that should add (rule of thumb for mfg cost is 5x) about $50 to $70 to the loco.

Greg

Yet they somehow figure that adding a $70 board now means a once $120 MSRP loco is now worth asking $345 MSRP, almost 3X the original price (using my old favorite example LGBs Porter). Piko’s Mogul non-sound/DCC had a street price of about $199, yet today’s version is $350 almost across the board, yet the only difference is the electronics, whats worse is that the camelback is $100 over that, I’m sure the Blue version will be about the same. But not having a basic option though really irks me off to no end.

Vic

you double the price of that board, add it to the old MSRP and there you are. Eons ago when I first arrived in Canada and was working at Black and Decker, I had a confidential source who had access to the cost and the wholesale price. My popping eyes almost pushed the glasses off my nose when I heard the details. Same deal on the life expectancy. Real eye openers and that was long before the Great Greed Wave arrived. (http://rhb-grischun.ca/phpBB3/images/smilies/3.gif)

Mike Morgan said:

Is it possible to get someone with experience of industrial costing into this discussion ?

Mike

Mike, Hans and Vic. In the copier world, the usual is to charge customers 3.5 times what the part cost the company. So if my company buys a part for $10, we charge the customer $35 for it. If the part cost 50 cents we charge $5 for it, since that is the lowest price we charge for anything. I earn a bit less then $19 an hour, but the customer is charged $135 an hour for my on site time. Overhead they say. Well, yes, I sure that those guys in the front office are paid a lot of money, judging from what they drive.

Years ago, I was talking with a manager at a local computer store. He was telling me what the mark up was on computers in his store. We were at an establishment that served adult beverages, and he was very well lubricated. Depending on the make and model, the mark up was 5 times the wholesale price or more. Now this was many years ago, many years, so I do not know what it is now, what with internet competition.

That being said. None of my LGB Porters have MTS, and so they were affordable. I have lost count of how many I have. I found another one today that I didn’t know I had, behind some old passenger car shells. If Piko would do a run of locomotives without all the “stuff” and list them for a reasonable price, they would sell. They did make, as I said before, the Mogul and 0-6-0 in non DCC versions. Knowing that, I wonder if in a year or so, if we will see non DCC Camel Backs come to market.

Cale, I have run a string of MDC and Piko boxcars behind my LGB Mogul, and it looks nice. It almost makes the Mogul look like a standard gauge locomotive that way.

Vic Smith said:

Unlike when LGB tried to force that then newfangled MTS witchcraft on everyone, today I don’t think anyone seams to care. The trains can be run non DCC and it seams that today more people WANT all the electronic gobbledygook pre- installed and bare bones guys like me are the dinosaur.

What I have never fathomed is how adding a $2 circuit board doubles the bloody asking price.

Fear not, Vic, you’re not alone. I run battery power, exclusively. I use Del Tapparro’s systems. But when it comes to sound I like simple. Since Del’s systems don’t seem to be compatible with some of LGB’s simple sound boards, I had to find a steam sound board that would work properly.

My solution was to purchase an HO gondola with steam sound. It’s about as simple as you can get. The HO model has two wipers that make contact with a brass strip on the axle. The power for the circuit board is a nine volt battery. When I installed the board and speaker in my battery trailing car, I used a reed switch and two 1/8" magnets glued to an axle. Now the sound matches the speed of the locomotive.

http://youtu.be/2E16TJwOYOM

Mike, I have manufacturing experience, but do not know the microprocessor they are using, nor the bit rate or memory size, so difficult to make the real assessment.

If someone takes some high resolution pictures of both sides of the decoder, I can have my hardware engineers see if they can identify the processor and tally up the cost of the components.

Then, we have to estimate the volumes of production, etc.

Greg

Dan, Small Scale Railway used to make HO sound boards, they even had a whistle and bell that would randomly kick in. But they quit making boards a while back. I want a bit more then just chuff on my locomotives.

David Maynard said:

Dan, Small Scale Railway used to make HO sound boards, they even had a whistle and bell that would randomly kick in. But they quit making boards a while back. I want a bit more then just chuff on my locomotives.

I hear you Dave and have been there, done that, as they say. I can appreciate the sounds that come out of high end sound systems. Perhaps someday, I will return to more elaborate sounds for my railway.

What with the price of the Ardrino single board computer, I don’t see why an inexpensive sound board couldn’t be built with one. My computer skills have atrophied over the years, and I am not up on all the new stuff, but with a little programming, and some prerecorded bells and whistles, why couldn’t a decent sound board be put together for less then $230?

Yup, it’s that time again. Time for me to take my meds and go to bed.

Greg said

“Mike, I have manufacturing experience, but do not know the microprocessor they are using, nor the bit rate or memory size, so difficult to make the real assessment.”

Greg , I understand what you are getting at , but as you know , overheads are one of the biggest factors controlling price .

To go into detail would cause a bit of eye glazing , but what people fail to see are the costs of manpower such as —

Draughtsmen , Buyers , Progress Chasers , Planning , Forward Cover , Record Keeping , Market Research , After Sale Support (including Modification and recording of that) , Advertising , Free Lunches for Potential Customers , Free Models for Magazines to Assess , Prototype Research and Recording and more . Tool makers and associated machinery cost a packet .

Then there’s Maintenance of Buildings , Electric Bills ------I think this is getting boring already so suffice it to say that Overheads come out at 200% or more----the maintenance of a clean room alone comes out at colossal rates .

Then you have to consider profit . And Insurance against liitle Jimmy hurting his finger on a model and suing the ass off the company .

So , as I said , is there a professional Costing Engineer here ?

Part of my previous life was taken up seeing that manufacturers don’t over-egg the pudding when designing and building Military Radars ; I learned a lot about hidden costs .

Some of you may say “we know all that” , but possibly find it an inconvenient truth .

You may even think some of the above items a bit flippant , but add them all up and you may get some idea of why and how of costs come about .

And bear in mind , the above does not cover everything .

Here’s a little exercise for you to think on , how much would it cost to send two engineers for a week to survey a simple railway wagon and produce satisfactory data to enable further work toward production ?

Just base it on your salary , travel expenses and living allowance (food and hotel).

Mike

David Maynard said:

What with the price of the Ardrino single board computer, I don’t see why an inexpensive sound board couldn’t be built with one. My computer skills have atrophied over the years, and I am not up on all the new stuff, but with a little programming, and some prerecorded bells and whistles, why couldn’t a decent sound board be put together for less then $230?

Yup, it’s that time again. Time for me to take my meds and go to bed.

I have one of those boards that I purchased to experiment with. I just need to get my head wrapped around the whole thing. I’m a nuts and bolts man and anything to do with electronics needs a clear mind.

Yes Mike:

“Greg , I understand what you are getting at , but as you know , overheads are one of the biggest factors controlling price .”

Sigh… Of course I know this, but you are sort of chastising me for figuring the raw cost…

Normally, companies have a pretty much rule of thumb multiplier, and often the raw parts cost is a 5x multiplier. (each company has it’s own rule of thumb, but I’m using this that we used at a small company called Hewlett Packard)

So, if this is true, a parts cost of $10 would give you an approximate selling price of $50, while a cost of $15 would net you $75, a BIG difference in the final price.

So, we who do this for a living start at the beginning, since everything is built on that beginning.

Anyway, without knowing these particulars, then all we have is a thread of wild guesses on mfg cost and true cost to sell… oops… what do you know?

Here we are, flailing around in wild speculation about the true added cost. By the way, I’ve actually worked in a number of companies where we manufactured consumer items, based on microprocessors. If you have the same pedigree, that’s great, but I think you sell trains.

At least you said so in the Piko R7 switch thread.

Greg Elmassian

www.pulselink.net

also Intel corp, Unisys, Uniden, Nippondenso/Denso

Greg , if you want to be clever , try reading the name of the bloke you mention in the R7 thread .

Mike (with a degree in electro mechanical design and 50years of applying it )

Greg,

Don’t worry about it, just remember the rejoinder I mentioned in this post.

http://www.largescalecentral.com/forums/topic/22329/search/view/post_id/259205

And now you have both had chance to think , I post things for everyone here to learn from , I was not addressing you personally . Either of you . Everyone .

God almighty , talk about "and a child shall lead them "

Mike

Come on Hans , you’re slipping .

7 minutes and you haven’t replied .

I can just imagine you feverishly burning your fingertips off with the speed of some of your blocking posts .

It’s a pity you didn’t work as hard in the Swiss Army instead of skiving off on invented medical grounds .

Mike

Image result for jaw drop smiley gif



Oh gee kids, are we going to start that again?

Why do we have to devolve into personal insults? Can’t we just disagree without personally insulting each other?

David Maynard said:

Oh gee kids, are we going to start that again?

Why do we have to devolve into personal insults? Can’t we just disagree without personally insulting each other?

I have no idea how calculating any items manufacturing cost has any bearing on the consumer. The consumer will either buy according to his need and pocket book or he won’t. All the rest is of little interest to the consumer, least of all how much each step in the manufacturing process contributes to the selling price.

All the rest is smoke and mirrors, diversions, distraction to get one more thread off topic and derailed. Apparently it’s great fun. As that old saying from W.C.Fields goes: " If you can’t dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit."