Large Scale Central

Silly mining questions

General Discussion
#1

Now that we actually have a mine area going in … I need to ask some profoundly silly questions … does anyone know:

1.) Assuming we don’t have a turning or passing track facility underground … is it practice to push cars into the mine and pull the (loaded) ones out, or do we pull the empties in and push the loaded ones out? (Assume for this discussion that the mine tunnel goes generally DOWN and not UP inside.)

2.) While mules, compressed air, and fireless steam were all options, and later places had some kind of trolley electric system … if you want a self contained more “modern” conveyance, are you limited to batteries, or is there some kind of internal combustion solution (from what I can see MHSA talks about diesels underground…) that’s generally used without smoking out the miners? Essentially, once you get past animals and steam/air bottles, what’s the general thinking on underground rail propulsion?

3.) I understand that a “man trip” can (these days) only be made with specific, purpose designed equipment … no riding in dump cars, etc. When did that come to be, and is it universally true? Do the rules in #1 apply to “Man Trips” as well; is it OK to push cars loaded with people instead of pulling?

#2

  1. I am not a miner.

  2. See number 1.

I suspect that most mines used a narrow gauge track into the mine. REAL NG. Like 15" or so.

What are you trying to model?

#3

Generally (and I only speak generally, because there may have been exceptions to this),

1- Mines large enough to have proper haulage railways almost certainly had a run around/ passing track underground, or some accommodation for moving the engine from one end to the other. Haulage trains would certainly be run to ore passes and chutes, rather than the working face. Single, smaller ore cars were generally used in the drifts. If a tunnel goes down or up, cars would be pulled or lowered by a rope system, not a locomotive. Also, you would want to always pull such a heavily loaded train, not push.

2-Mostly electric, whether battery or trolley. Internal combustion could only be used where there is exceptional ventilation, for obvious reasons.

3- Don’t know specifically when, but when technology improved to the point that they were starting to use haulage railways, I really doubt any mine owners would allow conveyance of humans in actual ore cars. Again, there may be exceptions to this, but not that I’m aware, at least as a matter of policy.

Btw, in the US, most underground track systems were/are 18" or 24" gauge, 18" being common for hand-pushed ore cars, 24" for haulage trains. There were some 3’ and standard gauge exceptions to this, like in a few of the big Phelps Dodge copper mines out west.

#4

Matthew (OV) said:

Now that we actually have a mine area going in … I need to ask some profoundly silly questions … does anyone know:

1.) Assuming we don’t have a turning or passing track facility underground … is it practice to push cars into the mine and pull the (loaded) ones out, or do we pull the empties in and push the loaded ones out? (Assume for this discussion that the mine tunnel goes generally DOWN and not UP inside.)

If you were going to use a small diesel or electric, I believe the engine goes down the hill from the cars to prevent a ‘run away’. This may also have been done to eliminate the need to run additional length on the waste material tracks, and make them capable of supporting the additional weight of the loco.

2.) While mules, compressed air, and fireless steam were all options, and later places had some kind of trolley electric system … if you want a self contained more “modern” conveyance, are you limited to batteries, or is there some kind of internal combustion solution (from what I can see MHSA talks about diesels underground…) that’s generally used without smoking out the miners? Essentially, once you get past animals and steam/air bottles, what’s the general thinking on underground rail propulsion?

Based on my knowledge from working for a company building underground equipment in the early '90s, most modern mines utilize primarily belt conveying systems for material removal from the mine. Other than belt conveyors, yes you would be limited to either battery/electric of some kind or diesel. Up intil the late '80s or early '90s all underground was required to be explosion proof electric. Now diesel is quite common for small conveyance.

3.) I understand that a “man trip” can (these days) only be made with specific, purpose designed equipment … no riding in dump cars, etc. When did that come to be, and is it universally true? Do the rules in #1 apply to “Man Trips” as well; is it OK to push cars loaded with people instead of pulling?

I am not sure of the law, but dedicated man trip vehicles have been around for a considerable time, and considering even modern mining operations will make Lincoln on a penny cry ‘Uncle’, I am sure they would not have invested money in man trips unless forced to.

Hope this helps. Not an expert, but do have some background.

Bob C

#5

I’m not a miner either, but I’ve toured one (Lackawanna Coal Mine) and read a bit about some.

The one I toured shut down in the 70’s. It used an electric powered cable winch system to lower man cars, or ore cars into the sloping shaft (is that a drift?). It was (still is) operated from above ground. I believe the EBT used cable systems as well; powered by steam generated at the mine head.

I have seen pictures of electric trolley systems. they probably weren’t used where explosive atmospheres could be present like a coal mine.

Can’t answer any of your era questions.

#6

The examples I have seen, pulled the cars in and pushed them out. Panel track and simple construction.

#7

Matt,

The answer to your questions depends mainly on 3 things that I can think of off hand.

1- The era that the mine was operating in would dictate the machinery available.

2- The mineral or ore being mined will also dictate machinery used.

3- Type and location of the mine. A coal mine in Kentucky is a lot different from a

hard rock quartz gold mine in California.

4- another thought. Mine size, how many tons of ore are being produced each shift?

this will dictate how many car loads of ore you have to deal with. depending on your era

those ore cars had to be loaded with pick and shovel, self loading scoops, or muck wagons.

Lots of variables, what are you mining???

May not be of any help but I posted a photo tour of a western gold mine I visited last fall.

here is a link.

http://www.largescalecentral.com/forums/topic/17680/search/view/post_id/190709

Good luck

Rick

#8

Well, I am a miner. Or at least was. My degree is in Mininig Engineering.

  1. The engine is always first. Mostly for safety. The mine always had a way for the engine to runaround the cars. Someone said something about braking and that is also correct. The engineer needed to see where he was going and so it was required that the locomotive be in front. Of course we have to determine what time frame are you modeling. I believe the rule came out when the Bureau of Mines was established in 1910. Or it could have been around 1940s.

  2. Most modern equipment run on Diesel fuel. There are a few pieces of equipment that run on electric, but it cost so much to maintain a powerhouse and transport and maintain a power distrobution system. The cheapest way is use Diesel. In fact there are diesel machines that are used in underground coal mines, which are the most volatile area. If your mine is a more modern one, say around 1940s and later is when diesel was used more regularly. Of course there is room for a battery powered system.

  3. The man trips were most likely abandoned in the early 1900s, probably around 1910 when Bureau of Mines was established. However, the BofM was not allowed to conduct inspections until 1941. So I would say there was a few mines that operated the old ways. Today there are dedicated cars that haul men to the active mining site and back. If the rule didnt go into effect in 1910 or 1941, then it most certainly became a rule when MSHA was established in 1977.

As far as other options, think of the cheapest way to move man and materials and that is mostly likely how they did it.

#9

Jake,

I beg to differ with you on the man trips. The company I used to work for in Knoxville is still making man trips (explosion proof 72vdc battery), rock dusters and other mine related equipment all to MSHA standards. I did forget to mention in my earlier post that all my experience is in shaft mine coal facilities in Tennessee, Virginia and West Virginia.

I have not worked there in almost 20 years (hard to believe it was that long ago). The company is JBLCo, in Knoxville, TN. www.jblco.com

Bob C.

#10

The furthest (timetable) north stop on the SCRY is the mine. I haven’t for sure decided what comes out, exactly … but my ‘concept’ of what it’s like shows up a lot in Gilpin photos, and that mine on the Georgetown Loop that you can tour. I asked about diesel mine locos because of the one in the James Bond movie … and yeah, I know that’s a movie, and therefore not real, but it has the flavor of what I was looking for, equipmentwise.

The tunnel goes back into the mountain, and has a 2’ gauge track with tip cars … these come out and dump into a pit that ia bucket loaded into a tipple of one kind or another that conceals a big wooden beam. The current plan is to have five empties arrive at the mine and five going out full on each train with the opposite process at the crusher plant, one stop timetable north of the yard… processed ore goes down through the yard and out onto the pier to be picked up.

Timewise … the history of the SCRY is supposed to date back to around 1900 … with the idea that the mine never really stopped producing, and kept the railroad in enough money to be a prosperous tourist line, keep its steam locomotive fleet, and still run some revenue ore trains even in the present day.

I’m aware it cuts a lot of corners … but I want the thing to be relatively plausible operationswise, which is why I’ve asked.

Oh. I know in the real world there’d never be a bucket/elevator system. If I run the track out of the mine high enough to load the hopper by gravity, nobody will ever see anything but the bottom of it as it’d be over 6’ high. So the above described sequence is necessary.

#11

Mine is an 1800s era operation in the west.

The mine cars are narrpw gauge powered by a Gn15 steam engine that will move the ore to an ore chute where it is transferred to the gondolas which would be transported to the mill.Being a history buff this was the typical western oprtation.

I have also seen an engine that operates on compressed air. This was used at an Arizona explosives facility. And it still works!

#12

I was a minor once, then I turned 18

Looks like the best answers have already been given

#13

Bob Cope said:

Jake,

I beg to differ with you on the man trips. The company I used to work for in Knoxville is still making man trips (explosion proof 72vdc battery), rock dusters and other mine related equipment all to MSHA standards. I did forget to mention in my earlier post that all my experience is in shaft mine coal facilities in Tennessee, Virginia and West Virginia.

I have not worked there in almost 20 years (hard to believe it was that long ago). The company is JBLCo, in Knoxville, TN. www.jblco.com

Bob C.

Sorry, you misunderstood me. They still make them and are still used. Some miners will refer a train loaded with workers as a “man trip”. I was refering to the practice of loading up the ore cars with miners and tranporting them.

#14

Matt,

I think your idea of a mine could be very plausable.

#15

Jake Smith said:

Bob Cope said:

Jake,

I beg to differ with you on the man trips. The company I used to work for in Knoxville is still making man trips (explosion proof 72vdc battery), rock dusters and other mine related equipment all to MSHA standards. I did forget to mention in my earlier post that all my experience is in shaft mine coal facilities in Tennessee, Virginia and West Virginia.

I have not worked there in almost 20 years (hard to believe it was that long ago). The company is JBLCo, in Knoxville, TN. www.jblco.com

Bob C.

Sorry, you misunderstood me. They still make them and are still used. Some miners will refer a train loaded with workers as a “man trip”. I was refering to the practice of loading up the ore cars with miners and tranporting them.

This was my misimpression as well … I was using the phrase “Man Trip” to mean any means of transporting workers in and out … and questioning whether this required the specific purpose built equipment that Bob’s talking about or whether a “man trip” could consist of using ore cars to haul workers … so between the two of you I’ve got it:

So let’s review, then:

1.) Proposed two foot gauge mine tunnel railway: Plausible

2.) Need to either turn or run around cars to keep locomotive at the head of train: YES

3.) Diesel powered underground locomotive: YES, depending on when in time.

4.) Storage battery powered underground locomotive: YES, pretty much any time

5.) “Drift” (meaning not really up or down) mine using this type of haulage system: YES (though most modern ones don’t)

6.) Specific equipment needed to transport miners in and out of the mine: YES

7.) Proposed unloading facility: Plausible, if a bit odd to have a bucket elevator involved.

So far so good?

Anyone who can provide photos of the mine at the Georgetown Loop, or similar operation involving a small gold/silver mine (but big enough for the kind of operation I’m describing) please do.

Thanks for all your input so far … I am pleased we have folks “in the biz” who can answer some of this!

Matthew (OV)

Edit #1, with more to come: Just found Rick Marty’s link with the mine photos … dunno how I missed it before … but this is what I’m going for, except including a rail tram and with the mill on a different site (thereby justifying the actual railroad!) Rick, I wonder: Any photos inside the mine, or of the ore before it’s processed?

Edit #2: Ok. So the picture is actually the stuff waiting to go through the crusher, not the stuff that just came out. That’s good, as I was expecting much larger pieces going in. That thread is a WEALTH of information; many thanks to Rick and those who commented on it!

So, now … in a mine like that … well, wait. I’ll make a new post so it’s easier to respond to.

#16

So … let’s say we’re making a mine like that:

Let’s make a couple of fictional changes …

First of all, imagine a 2’ gauge railroad built into the tunnel, which, due to its age would probably be a lot smaller, dimensionally … after all, we don’t have great big LHD’s to drive in there. Going to guess that as you went in, you’d see a long tunnel, getting to the working area. Would this be lighted along the way or not? would it be shored up with metal like the one in Rick’s photo, or is that just to get through the dirt into the rock? I can imagine there’d be “rooms” on either side as described, where ore would be dug out and loaded … what kind of machinery comes between LHD’s and picks and shovels to do this? Finally, are there any facilities underground … I mean, an office … command center … restroom and cafeteria :slight_smile: (Again, I’m thinking of the ZORN mine in the James Bond movie, with the office trailer in the main chamber… but I know that’s hollywood.)

In any case, moving along … crews use the machinery described above to dig out ore that looks like the stuff in Rick’s photo … and load it into the mine train. Does all this happen at the very end, or is it necessary to stop along the way to allow it to be loaded up from stuff closer to the surface that hasn’t run out yet? There’s a larger chamber at some point near end of track that allows the locomotive to be swapped to the outbound end, and presumably this is where empties are left, and full cars are picked up?

Obviously a lot of questions. I’m not asking anyone to write an essay, but anything you can pick away at would be good.

#17

When it comes to shoring up the mines in the West they tended to use large wood beams. Depending on the quality of the rock the entire mine was shored or just the beginning. If they were “hard rock” mining they didn’t have to shore it up.

In the West it was pick and shovel and dynamite.

The mines tended to be dug into the lower part of the hill and as they added levels they would use gravity to dump the ore into a sgaft where it would fall to the lower level where a door would hold it. They could then raise the door and dump the ore into the larger ore cars so it could be removed from the mine.

All facilities were outside the mine. Bathrooms were a side tunnel near where you worked!

#18

As a quick aside, here’s the james bond thing I keep going on about:

http://www.amberleynarrowgauge.co.uk/early-years/slides/[email protected]

http://www.amberleynarrowgauge.co.uk/early-years/slides/[email protected]

The mine’s obviously a lot bigger than what I’m planning, but you get the idea.

#19

LHD’s are obviously the current standard when it comes to “mucking”. Prior to that there were a lot of diffrerent machines. Some mines used a small compressed air locomotive that looked a lot like an LHD, but ran on 2’ guage track. They used this machine in the 30s thru 50s and possibly into the 60s. Here is a picture of one.

http://www.smokstak.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=145&c=26

As far as other facilities, it really depended on the mine and how big it was. If you had a large mine then there would be an area where the workshop was (this area fixed equipment and whatever else, it where the mechanics worked). You would have a storage area for explosives. Usually an explosives area would be an adit off a drift. (Adit = a small depression or small drift off a main drift. Used mostly for a pull in area for equipment to get around each other or storage. Drift = a long opening that does not daylight on both ends. A tunnel has an opening to daylight on both ends.) Other facilities might include a relief station. This would be a place where safety and survival equipment might be stored. Usually this area is also used a breakroom. If ventilation is needed you would have an area where the main fans are and cooling system if needed.

However, it sounds like your mine wont be too big. Most of the equipment would be serviced on the surface. You could say there is a Relief Station for the miners. Mostly likely the explosives would be stored underground.

As far as what you use to shore of the openings. Wood was used a lot. You can use steel but it was a lot more expensive, how rich was the mine?

As far as loading at some point. That is complicated. If you have multiple levels, most mines are designed with a ore chute. An ore chute is a verticle shaft that runs from the top of the mine to the bottom. The ore is dumped from each level into the chute and then gathered at the bottom and hauled out of the mine.

Other things to consider is, “Are the miners high grading?” This means they are only mining the high grade ore and leaving the lower stuff. This would mean loading out in various locations. If they are just mining then where the miners load ore all depends on the mine plan.

Thats a quick and dirty explanation

#20

Matt,

In your other thread about the tipple, is this the kind of structure you are looking for.

(http://freightsheds.largescalecentral.com/users/rick_marty/_forumfiles/miscpicts/bunker.jpg)

This was a local mine where they were mining quartz rock to send to the copper smelter. Unfortunately this is the only picture I have of it and the written information does not explain how the lift worked.

Timber shoring was and is the material of choice for re-enforcing the rock and earth tunnels/drifts/adits/stopes/etc. in the hard rock mines of the west. The Ol-Man made a career of hauling mining timbers all over the western states from the mid 1960’s to the mid 1980’s. The small company he worked for bought the timber from local sawmills and custom cut the lengths and notches per a mines order. The Washington Mine still uses timber shoring from this same company today.

Another thing to remember/consider in a hardrock mine 1/2 to 3/4 of all the loads brought out are waste rock or muck not ore. That’s why there are such huge tailings piles at mines as well as at mills.

Another thought. The locomotive, no matter how powered, didn’t run all through the mine and all the side drifts. The loco was generally just used to pull a string of loads to daylight after the individual loaded cars were loaded and pushed by hand to the collection point.

Again practices varied depending on location and era but you can bet it was accomplished in the most economical manner possible.

Good thread, lots of information coming out.

Rick