Hello again everyone,
I'm wondering is there a set of standards established like the NMRA for HO for the large scales?
Like the recomended weight per length of a certin car length or type?
SmokeboxActually, you can reasonably divide the prototype weight by your scale and it works.
Ain’t physics wonderful?
Regards, Greg
Greg, you’d want to divide the prototype weight by the cube of the scale, since you’re scaling total volume. For instance, an EBT hopper car has a light weight of around 25,000 pounds. Dividing that by 20.3, your weight would be in excess of 1/2 ton. Not exactly easy to move… 
Now, cube 20.3 (8,365) and divide the prototype weight by that, and you’re much closer to what our equipment actually weighs. (The EBT hopper would be around 3 pounds).
Don’t try this formula on the small scales, as you’ll find the average HO scale car weighing under 1 ounce.
Rob, there are no adhered-to standards in large scale–for anything, let alone weight. We don’t need to go into the scale debate, suffice to say what’s been long-established often goes completely ignored by the manufacturers. Most commercial rolling stock is quite heavy enough to stay on the track without difficulty–especially those running with metal wheels. You may find the odd flat car being a touch light, but that’s common in all scales.
Later,
K
It’s such a shame that the large scale manufacturers do not seem to adhere to any standards.
Since it’s important to have some sort of standards for smooth running, you may want to take a look at The Gauge One Model Railway Association (http://www.gaugeone.org/) Check the resources link from that page.
Hello again everyone;
We need to all come together and make a set of standards for the U.S. modelers. The Gauge 1 guys have it going on, however if they have something reguarding the actual rolling stock I did not find it. I will add the links to the end of this post for their track which I remember hearing request for, they have the requirements on one of the pages I will list.
I also remember this and it may be the reason that there are not set rules, 25 years ago G scale was a whismical toy used to run around trees at the hollidays.
So.... who has the skills to make the proposal. after all of this time we have graduated from the toy around the tree stage of modeling. And to tell you the truth I have no idea what so ever on how to do it.
Maybe make a certin weight in oz. per length of railcar? The locomotives we have these days are very strong pullers, some of the cars we have are feathers others armor clad tanks. (Diecast or extruded alum.)
I'm going to pester NMRA and see what they say,
It is not a problem for someone to decide on the track and wheel standards, I have an old Pullman gauge so someone has done that already.
http://www.gaugeone.org/Misc/STANDARD%20DIMENSIONS%20FOR%20GAUGE%20‘1’.pdf
http://www.gaugeone.org/Misc/G1%20Dimensions.pdf
SmokeboxWhat problem are you solving with this weight standard?
Rob -
The Enema Ray has been down this road before. Twice if I remember correctly. No final standards have ever come off it. The biggest resistance comes from the manufacturers, followed closely by the vocal majority of large scalers. The cry “we don’t need no stinkin” standards’ can be heard throughout the land.
The problem is the large number of scales represented on gauge 1 track. Each one requires it’s own set of standards. This complex set of standards then becomes overwhelming and fails to gain approval.
We seem to do just fine with very few accepted standards. G1MRA has covered track fairly well. For most that can be summed up in back-to-back wheel gauge. If you hand lay track, the gauge and flange way standards are helpful.
My railroad has only two standards. Back-to-back Wheel gauge and couplers. If I adhere to that my stuff runs well on my track. People who run on club tracks need to establish some simple club standards so everything runs smoothly, but again, wheel gauge and couplers cover 90% of the issues.
Jon
Rob,
The problem isn’t so much arriving at a set of standards, as G1MRA’s had them for decades. The trick is to get the manufacturers to agree to them. Most of the major players are loathe to use G1MRA’s standards except seemingly by coincidence. There is currently a group of large scale modelers working with the NMRA to develop wheel and track standards which not only work, but are agreeable to the manufacturers. It’s the latter part of that equation that poses the larger issue. This group is only looking at wheel and track standards. Things like weight and coupler standards aren’t being (and in my opinion needn’t be) discussed.
Later,
K
Kevin: thanks, been doing the “cube divide” so long, it’s natural, just did not write it down in the post… doh!
Jon: Back to back means nothing without track gauge (obvious), but more importantly (since track gauge is rarely the issue), guardrail flangeway width.
For example, Aristo WR switches have an excessively wide flangeway, in order to not pick the points, you have to go out of spec on the back to back (make it too tight). It’s a mess.
All: I’ve devoted a page to standards, where I put the NMRA (current & proposed) and the G1MRA specs, and also compared them to the Aristo track gauge and the Kadee gauge. I guess I should also purchase a Pullman gauge to complete the set.
http://www.elmassian.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=85&Itemid=95
Regards, Greg
Fair enough Greg. I’d rather fix those switches than change my b-b wheel gauge. Track gauge is pretty much a given for me - nothing is hand laid. I do have some of those WR switches and they are a royal pain.
Not to keep tooting my horn, but I have some tips on improving the Aristo WR switches, just go on my site and go under TRACK, you will see a page on the Aristo Wide Radius switches. I’ve got a few things you can do easily to improve them, although you might already have heard of them.
Regards, Greg
I knew that 
(about your website tips) Been following your stuff for several years on the Aristo Forum and MLS. I messed with some shims once, but they were to crudely made. When I get tired of fighting them I’ll fix them the right way.
Hello again;
Well I shot an email off to the folks at NMRA asking for standards on 1/32, 1/29, 1/22.5 and 1/20.5 yes I know I left out you guys with the 7/8"scale but the reason I did this is because just like in 1/20.5 your stuff is special (awwwl aint that sweet.....) but seriously, you guys are running some really big stuff.
My thought is, and I could not give a cash amount if you had a gun to my head, we spend a whole buttload of cash on this hobby 25 years ago it was ok to just do what ever as long as the toys went around the tree everyone was happy. But the large scale hobby has grown up a bit and I think we deserve more dawg'gonnit. (Did I just show my geograpical upbringging again??) shucks!!
As some of you know I'm thinking of making some cars for sale, (Yes a real company) I would prefer to do this on par with some of the major players out there in railroad land so if I do make it happen hopefully someone will not say "what a p.o.c. this thing don't line up with anything I have ", any idea what size this thing actually is??
I would prefer to do it right the first time, as that was litterally beaten into me from my youth!
smokeboxRob, you won’t go wrong with the G1MRA standards. They’ve been around for decades, and equipment built to those standards (generally speaking) stays on the rails unless faced with something like the switches Greg mentioned or other extreme cases where track specs are way off kilter. Most 3rd-party track guys use those as a good baseline, and 3rd-party wheel guys use them as well (at the very least in terms of back-to-back spacing). Alas, large-scale standards have historically been a very quixotic pursuit, and there’s no guarantee the current group taking a look at things is going to have any more luck against these windmills. The advantage we have this time 'round is that the NMRA has given us free rein to look at standards through large-scale glasses, as opposed to trying to translate small-scale practice up to large-scale sizes. No promises or predictions at this point in the game, just cautious optimism and the knowledge that “things can’t get any worse” if we’re unsuccessful.
(http://www.orpheus-theatre.on.ca/shows/images/2000-lamancha.jpg)
To dream the impossible dream… Later, K
How quixotic!
Hello everyone;
This is the reply I got from the NMRA.
Regarding your question, there are no weight standards in Large Scale.
Most plastic freight cars weigh about 12 oz. (with plastic wheelsets). Typically modelers will add metal wheelsets. That adds enough weight without adding additional friction (and drag) to the journals (and lowers the center of gravity) that most cars work reliably.
There are variables based on flange depth, turnout quality, and track linear “twist”. The later is actually a common cause of derailments (especially in outdoor layouts). This is when the two rails have a short section where they are not at the same height. Often this is on a straight piece of track (on a curve superelevation can cause the same problem). The cure is not adding more weight however. The best fix is realigning the rail heights and secondly adding equalization to the trucks (or improving their equalization).
Brass cars typically weigh upto 7 lbs. Many modelers will use ball bearing wheelsets to reduce drag.
With both Plastic and Brass cars, typically excess weight is not added because it directly affects engine pulling ability, especially in curves and on grades.
Hope the above was helpful. If you have any further questions please contact me directly.
Sincerely,
Gary Raymond
NMRA Large Scale Technical Coordinator
Rob Wright said:
Hope the above was helpful. If you have any further questions please contact me directly.Sincerely,
Gary Raymond
NMRA Large Scale Technical Coordinator
12 oz? Maybe in HO.
Try 4 or 5 pounds for a freight car. Passenger cars tend to be heavier.
(I really need to dig my little scale out of storage.)
Is this the same Gary Raymond who manufactures wheels? He seems to be out of touch with reality if he thinks “Most plastic freight cars weigh about 12 oz. . . .”
Stan Ames is the NMRA’s DCC guru and thankfully doesn’t appear to be in the track and wheel business. However, I see from the above reply to Rob’s inquiry that Gary Raymond’s title is “NMRA Large Scale Technical Coordinator”. One would think they could at least find someone who had some knowledge of LS. It certainly doesn’t look as if Mr. Raymond’s participation will bring anything usable in the near future.
Happy RRing,
Jerry
Jerry Bowers said:You left off the rest of his statement: "...with plastic wheel sets."
Is this the same Gary Raymond who manufactures wheels? He seems to be out of touch with reality if he thinks "Most plastic freight cars weigh about 12 oz. . . ."
I just weighed one of my Bachmann gondolas from the original Big Hauler set. It still has plastic wheels and weighs about one pound, tops. A little more than 12 ounces, sure but far less than 3-4 pounds.
I didn’t weigh my boxcar before I replaced the wheels, but I don’t think it weighed much more than the gondola.
Any plastic cars which come with metal wheels will naturally weigh more.