Large Scale Central

Roadbed Recommendations

Track and Trestles
#1

Hi Everyone,

Long time lurker here as well as a returning enthusiast to the large scale hobby. I have been into trains since a child, starting with an HO layout and then finally convincing my parents to let me build a garden layout in our backyard as a teenager.

Put the hobby on hold for a bit through college, getting married, having kids and buying a house of my own, so now I am ready to introduce my children to my favorite hobby.

Had a question/looking for advice on roadbed and ballast. For my first garden layout, we used that insulation Styrofoam board ¾” thick from HD, cut it into 4 foot strips x 4” wide, painted it brown and then secured it to packed, leveled dirt using 4 inch nails. Then put small finish nails through the ties into the Styrofoam and ballasted around everything. This seemed to work pretty good, didn’t have the rot issues of wood, you could stand on the rails if needed and you didn’t crush the Styrofoam and you could shim (i.e. push dirt/rock under the roadbed to re-level the track. Being in Southern CA, we don’t have the frost/weather issues and it survived the heat and rain pretty well.

It was a bit of an un-conventional way to do it, but it worked pretty well. The only problem is that it was quite a bit of work, and mess, cutting, pulling the plastic coating off the Styrofoam (we found out latex paint will not stick to the covering and just flake off, so that lead to re-doing ¾ of the layout a year later….) and the ballast didn’t seem to stick very well around it (this could have been a ballasting issue too)

This go around, I was thinking concrete roadbed, but not sure. Also was looking at doing the floating style by digging a trench and doing the rock base and ballasting, maybe pressure treated wood…

This layout will be much smaller, about 10 x 20. We are still in Southern CA, so temperature extremes and weather other than rain (or lack thereof) are not a problem. Will probably do a continuous run modified over and under, or just a slight rise in grade then back down.

Looking for some advice on ballast grit this time around too, and any vendors in the So Cal area if anyone can recommend one to get ballast. Open to any and all suggestions as this will hopefully be a long term install as we don’t plan on moving :slight_smile:

Thanks,

Chris

#2

Ballast on the ground, good drainage if you water around it, a path for the water if we ever get rain.

Local landscaping supply or people who sell aggregate for concrete.

Where in SoCal are you? (I’m in Sandy Eggo)

Greg

#3

Hi Chris, welcome to the nut house. You don’t have to be crazy to hang out here, but it sure helps. (http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-cool.gif)

The problem with a concrete road bed is its permanence. Have you investigate just floating the track in the ballast like the big boys do? Living in SOCAL, that usually works well. How about the ladder method.?

What type of gravel did you use? If you used pea gravel, those little, rounded stones suited mostly for aquariums, it is no wonder that they didn’t hand around. Most of us use crushed rock, usually 3/8 inch minus, all the way down to dust, for our ballast. That way, the rough edges of the crushed rock will lock together, and the fined rocks will form an almost concrete like roadbed, once it gets wet and has a chance to settle. Unlike concrete, though, a simple hand trowel will reshape it, if that is desired.

I don’t have any recommendations about suppliers, as I don’t live there. Good luck, andwelcome.

#4

Within our right-a-way in trench, 3-6" of 7mm gyra rock, ref. https://shop.burncolandscape.com/products/7mm-washed-rock-2210.html

tamped to level,

track laid and then ‘ballasted’ with #1 chicken grit.

Been terrific since Fall 2000. Albeit like the prototypes maaaybe a half dozen times augmented the rock base in diff. spots, and at least once a yr added some more #1 due to weathering.

And from George Schreyer’s tips pages;

http://girr.org/girr/tips/tips1/ballast_tips.html

good luck,

doug c

p.s. #1 chicken grit, farm feed/supply outlets like UFA or CooP

#5

Thank everyone for the replies. Yes I think we ignorantly used pea gravel, though it was on the courser side, on the first layout, then tried to add some crushed quartz or something more sharp to keep things in place better, which seemed to work for a while, but the flat, smooth surface of the Styrofoam had no gripping power and I think that was a factor too.

Greg - I am in the OC area, near Disneyland.

Luckily the area I want to do the layout in has good drainage, we have good soil around here too and its off the main garden area so any watering would be by hand or minimal based on landscaping I add.

Thanks!

#6

I did the crushed limestone in a trench about 6 inches deep. due to settling and such, if I were to do it again, I would make the trench a bit shallower, and probably fill the trench with larger stone. Then use the crushed limestone as top dressing. Concrete roadbed is way to permanent for me. I have made some changes to my railroad over the past 13 years, and if I had to break up the unwanted roadbed, it would have been a bear.

#7

Welcome Chris.

My layout is built on a sloping yard and I have track that is on the ground and some that is 4’ off the ground on a bench.

I have to say I really like my trains closer to eye level VS watching roofs go by my feet. The track that needs the most work is that which is on the ground. On the ground I use 3/8th grey stone which is a course gravel. It is not to scale but neither are the 5 gallon buckets of water that is a rain drop falling on it.

If you can get your layout up a bit even just 12 inches I think you will enjoy it more. If you are building a 10x20 you could build a box and fill it with dirt leaving out a few canyons to make a reason for a bridge. You can keep your track near level and give the illusion of grade by raising and lowering the scenery.

Building a new layout is very exciting.

#8

Chris, are you going single track or double track? If you go double, you will not regret having 8" between track centers. And you will need to go 6" deep and 16" wide on the ballast. Line the trench with some sort of barrier to help keep the weeds and grass out of the roadbed.

#9

Was thinking of doing a raised bed this time. The first layout was ground level, but the backyard was big enough that your eye while sitting caught the trains sides and not so much of a top down look, but maintenance, even for a young me was hard on the back, especially doing all track power, with large tree overhang.

That is a great idea to incorporate a dry wash or river feature/trestle by using a raised bed…the creative wheels are spinning now :slight_smile:

Still debating on a double loop or single. Def. will keep the spacing in mind though.

Thank again for the feedback and advice!

#10

Welcome Chris

#11

Welcome Chris. I built up the area that the RR runs on with a retaining wall that is just the right height for setting on comfortably. This is an early on pic as I was still adding dirt to my mountain, and laying track.

So yes its on the ground, But it’s 2 feet up, and easily reached.

I have good drainage so. I tamped down the road bed with a 12x12 hand tamper, then by hand with a red brick, laid down a 6" width of weed barrier, put 1" of 3/8-crushed gravel down as road bed, tamped it with the brick again, laid the track on top, and then add 1/4-screaded crushed gravel as the ballast between the ties. My weather in N. NM is very similar to what I grew up with in SoCal ( Upland), so What I did would probably work well for you.

#12

Chris, I too used/use 1" exterior foam board for track base. I’ve had some down for over 10 years and it is still holding up will. It does, as you point out, require some leveling from time to time, but it is durable. I have started using “tube sand”, the stuff folks sometimes buy to place in their cars/pickup trucks for weight during icy winter months in our area as ballast. I found the sand to be very coarse and looks good as ballast, except it’s a little lighter color than I like. I’m presently building an elevated layout similar to the principles Rich Smith has used on his layout and will use the tube sand and foam board for track base on the new layout. Mine will be 20-36" tall to adjust for ground elevation changes. I expect the foam base will last even longer above ground on the elevated frame. Hadn’t thought about painting the board to conceal it a bit more. That’s a good idea before adding the ballast. Good luck on your plan. I think most of the fellows here like the track elevated some if it’s possible. Makes for easier maintenance I think. My knees are no longer happy crawling around on the ground. Although the traditional ground layouts can be really outstanding.

#13

Dave - Very nice layout design there. That is along the lines of what I am now thinking. Getting it a bit off the ground would be better for long term, the minimal weather CA gets and maintenance. Would love to see some more pictures of it further along and or completed.

Rich - Glad to hear I was not the only one to think of the Styrofoam idea. Thought I was a bit crazy for that back in the day as I usually got wide eye looks when I mentioned that as my roadbed :wink: For painting, I usually went to HD and found a gallon of oopse paint and asked the guys at the paint desk to add in a bunch of colors to make it a dirt colored brown. Tops and bottoms were pretty easy with a roller, but the sides…unless you had a super sharp knife or something that left you clean edges, painting the rough edges of Styrofoam was trying. Maybe a paint sprayer would have been easier, but hey, I used what I had and what was low cost, elbow grease and a paint brush!

#14

Hey Chris…I have two road bed types; 1. concrete, and 2. ladder system. I’ve had the concrete system on the area I call Phase 1 for about 10 years and have had issues with it from the beginning. I’ve learned not to screw the track down as it causes derailment from time to time. And depending on how precise you are with getting the concrete level…well that definitely plays into the whole thing. A major issue currently is the trees planted 10 years ago are a lot bigger…I have one area where a root has broken and raised the track level which causes my cars to come uncoupled from time to time.

Phase 2 uses a ladder system built from vinyl strips purchased at Home Depot. I’ve really enjoyed this method as it has proven to be quite reliable.

I’ve not done the trench with crushed gravel, etc and secured things with ballast. I’m actually considering removing the concrete over time and replacing it with a form of the ladder system.

For what its worth…Richard

#15

Here in Minnesota, where frost heave is a real challenge, most have done little more than lay track and then ballast.

Note: I’m wintering just around the corner from you, in Los Alamitos.