Large Scale Central

Revolution/Phoenix/USATrains/Piko, oh my this gets confusing!

Electronics Power and Sound
#1

I am trying to wrap my head around the various ways of doing sound and control. I had in my head the way I thought was correct for me, but it’s still rather confusing and I’m not sure now if my ideas are realistic or the best way.

If I should go forward with this hobby I know I want 2 or 3 engines running at the same time and independent both in speed and direction. Two of the units would be USA Trains diesels probably GP38-2 and one would be some kind of steam (electric not live) but I have not determined what yet as I will have radius’ to work around. Let’s say the Piko White Pass for now. Initially not what I wanted to see because of that little sliding pickup thing on it, but choices are limited.

Now, the USA Trains seem like they would readily take Revolution, but the Piko? It already has it’s own sound onboard so how would that work?

Using Revolution I understand that it would be a constant track voltage (24v) and Phoenix has recommended a P8 sound board for that configuration. I have to assume that if Rev can be added too the Piko then the onboard sound would not work at a constant voltage, but can this Piko unit be made to take a Rev and a Phoenix board modification? This gets to be confusing for me. It seems there is no real standard here between brands and I wouldn’t want to be stuck with an incompatible set up.

The first equipment I was looking at would be the steam unit. Radius problems not withstanding since I’m still working on making something good fit in a yard that I believe really is too small for this.

Perhaps should be looking at totally different systems for control and sound?

I hope this makes sense.

Thanks.

Bart

#2

Bart, if need be the whole “guts” of a locomotive can be removed and the Revolution-Phoenix set up installed in its place. Several folks do that. But what if you discount a set up because you have to this if you buy a Piko locomotive, and then you end up with a Delton c16? In other words, maybe you should use the system that is best for you, and adapt whatever locomotive you eventually purchase, instead of worrying about the “what ifs”.

As for the track pick up skates, my USA F3 has them, and they aren’t too obtrusive. I have removed them from most of my LGB locomotives, and the locomotives run just fine. In fact they run better, since they are no longer dragging brakes.

#3

David Maynard said: In fact they run better, since they are no longer dragging brakes.

Track cleaners … good @ removing ant / bug matter…(http://largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-wink.gif)

Hey the Emoticons are back !(http://largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-laughing.gif)

We need cooler ones …

#4

I would ask what triggers the sounds. Voltage or sensor for the chuff. Reeds for bell and whistle can be replaced by electronics.

#5

Sean McGillicuddy said:

David Maynard said: In fact they run better, since they are no longer dragging brakes.

Track cleaners … good @ removing ant / bug matter…(http://largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-wink.gif)

Well maybe. But Chole, Olomana and the Industrial 0-4-0 cannot climb the summit with any cars in tow, while dragging then darn brakes. Without the brakes, they each can haul their assigned trains with ease.

#6

But I think this is what I am trying to sort out. I have an idea of what I need for controls, but hard to know if anything can be stuffed into anything else. I know the USA Trains can take both the Revolution and the Phoenix P8, but I do not know how to do it myself. I do not know if the Piko can take the Revolution and still use the stock sound or how that gets affected. Again, not a modification I would be able to do myself. I suppose Piko may have some comments about what I want to do or maybe not. I had the chance to see a Piko engine just this past weekend on a layout and the sound didn’t work at all. The owner said it had done that before when the humidity was higher. Not thrilled abut that. Happy to read here that the “brakes” can be removed. More than likely this would be my first engine if that’s the case, BUT I have to understand the systems available so I don’t end up stuck with a paper weight when I want to add to the system. Remember, for me this is a big world I’m trying to make sense of quickly. For most of you this is all old news and it makes way more sense then it currently does for me. No local people near me to learn from. It’s 90% to my own devices to puzzle out.

Bart

David Maynard said:

Bart, if need be the whole “guts” of a locomotive can be removed and the Revolution-Phoenix set up installed in its place. Several folks do that. But what if you discount a set up because you have to this if you buy a Piko locomotive, and then you end up with a Delton c16? In other words, maybe you should use the system that is best for you, and adapt whatever locomotive you eventually purchase, instead of worrying about the “what ifs”.

As for the track pick up skates, my USA F3 has them, and they aren’t too obtrusive. I have removed them from most of my LGB locomotives, and the locomotives run just fine. In fact they run better, since they are no longer dragging brakes.

#7

Bart, I’ll make a suggestion here that could address your other discussion as well.

I suggest you hit the pause button on thinking, go online and get yourself a new USA Trains CP Geep, a couple of cars, about twenty feet of track, and a power supply. In fact, I have a nice power supply I’d send you for nothing. Set a train up inside or outside and start playing around. See how you like it.

You might find out you’re in love with trains, you might find out it ain’t all you thought it would be. What’s the worse that can happen? You end up selling it all to us guys here on LSC and you can mail me back the power supply?

#8

John Passaro said:

Bart, I’ll make a suggestion here that could address your other discussion as well.

I suggest you hit the pause button on thinking, go online and get yourself a new USA Trains CP Geep, a couple of cars, about twenty feet of track, and a power supply. In fact, I have a nice power supply I’d send you for nothing. Set a train up inside or outside and start playing around. See how you like it.

You might find out you’re in love with trains, you might find out it ain’t all you thought it would be. What’s the worse that can happen? You end up selling it all to us guys here on LSC and you can mail me back the power supply?

.

#9

That my be a logical way to go. But it may not either. I have to plan. Sort of my process. I have to see a long term plan/path before I’ll know what I want to do as well as have a good idea of how it all works together. If I end up not seeing a plan for something I believe I can enjoy for a good long time then I know and zero dollars spent.

On the other hand, if come up with a doable and exciting idea for a long term plan then a simple loop is great to watch as I start digging up the yard.

I’ve spent the last year on this adventure so that’s a good start. Usually only when I get too much information all at once that I have been throwing up my arms.

Thanks for the offer. I’ll keep that in mind through the process.

Bart

" Rooster " said:

John Passaro said:

Bart, I’ll make a suggestion here that could address your other discussion as well.

I suggest you hit the pause button on thinking, go online and get yourself a new USA Trains CP Geep, a couple of cars, about twenty feet of track, and a power supply. In fact, I have a nice power supply I’d send you for nothing. Set a train up inside or outside and start playing around. See how you like it.

You might find out you’re in love with trains, you might find out it ain’t all you thought it would be. What’s the worse that can happen? You end up selling it all to us guys here on LSC and you can mail me back the power supply?

.

#10

Bart a plan is a good thing. But, we have seen so many people get so lost in planning, that they never lay a stick of track, and then they just sort of quit posting on sites.

I planned for a year, because the track I wanted didn’t come on the market when it was advertised to. So I know the value of planning. But I also know the joy of watching what I put together actually work. Sometimes its a real surprise when something I did actually works.

#11

Based on my history of remaining interested in a hobby it is better for me to take 2 years planning before spending any money. Lot’s of good money blown on things that I cared about for 3 or 4 years then gave up on. Don’t want to see that happening again. It’s a problem when years of working in a detail job has turned everything into a goal and a target not a hobby. Then when retirement appears on the horizon what is there for a hobby? Scary prospect. Already had a throw up my arms moment tonight when I realized I probably won’t be able to do anything with electric steam and get what I want out of it. That was a major point on the check list.

Bart

#12

I probably won’t be able to do anything with electric steam and get what I want out of it.

Why not? There are many folks here that run steam outline locomotives on battery power.

#13

When using the Phoenix sound card you can have voltage or a reed sensor control the chuff. I have the programmer and have set up configurations on my Phoenix units.

NOw I have gone to DCC and have reprogrammed some Phoenix units for DCC operation.

#14

Since you are just starting out I would suggest staying small which equates to cheap. If you find out that you don’t like this hobby then you won’t take a big hit. The used market is always booming but you might not get what you put into an engine.

If you have space restrictions in your yard then I would suggest keeping your engines on the small side since they will look and operate better on tight radius track.

As for control track power is your best friend since you can run anything right out of the box without putting more money into it for control.

I have been running track power for 10 years now and I use an Aristocraft train engineer that gives me walk around control. The new Revolution replaced this system. I took the leap with one engine this Winter and installed a Revo with battery power. It is now my favorite engine.

I’d say get some track down get a loco and several cars and have some fun. There is time later on to explore sound and control systems.

#15

Bart Busse said:

Already had a throw up my arms moment tonight when I realized I probably won’t be able to do anything with electric steam and get what I want out of it.

What are you trying to get out of it? About the only thing that you can’t do today with modern control/sound electronics with regard to steam locos is to recreate big, billowing plumes of black coal smoke. You can use fan-driven smoke units and get billowing white/grey smoke. One fellow I know built a loco with 6 or so individual smoke units, each feeding its own unique output–generator, whistle, smoke stack, etc. Today’s sound systems are top drawer for recreating the sound of a steam locomotive as it digs into pulling a heavy train up a steep grade and quietly coasting downhill.

(I did see one electric-steam loco produce billowing black smoke once, but that was because the batteries in the boiler had shorted. Cool effect; not the ideal means to that end.)

Later,

K

#16

A couple of reasons. When compared side by side the Piko and the USA Trains appear to be from different realities. Maybe it’s a scale thing. Maybe something else, but just do not look right together. The only ones that do seem to look right can’t handle the radius’ I will have. Also, does not look like everything is made to easily take add in things like new controls and different sound. Way too much fiddling for me. Up until a few days ago I was under the impression there was some kind of standard for a lot of these things to work together, but now I see everyone basically does their own thing. That leaves me with modern engines from USA Trains which leaves out the steam which was on the “want” check list.

Bart

David Maynard said:

I probably won’t be able to do anything with electric steam and get what I want out of it.

Why not? There are many folks here that run steam outline locomotives on battery power.

#17

so you have tight curves, there’s plenty of locos in the same scale as the USAT diesels.

You stated something a while back, trying to understand quickly.

Mistake… spend more time looking and reading and asking questions… you cannot get wise/experienced/knowledgeable quickly… plan and take your time.

while you are learning, figure out your tightest curve, and buy the USAT diesel you want that fits

Greg

#18

USAT does make a steamer that should work on smaller curves.

#19

Could you give me some examples? I’ve spent a lot of time looking for something in that scale for electric steam that can handle tight curves and still look like what I would want, but I have not found anything yet. I’m particular about how the loco should look.

Let me rephrase on trying to understand quickly. I am trying to absorb as much as I can as fast as I can, but I will not be rushed to start building. Understanding and planning is important to me.

**I have started to reconsider battery power after finding there is drop in kits for USA Trains that do not appear to need a lot of fiddling plus they are built for the P8 sound card which is what I was looking at. I do not know much about Air Wire though so need to learn about that before I could say I’d be happy with that system. It would save a lot of work and money on the track portion of the project though.**Bart

Greg Elmassian said:

so you have tight curves, there’s plenty of locos in the same scale as the USAT diesels.

You stated something a while back, trying to understand quickly.

Mistake… spend more time looking and reading and asking questions… you cannot get wise/experienced/knowledgeable quickly… plan and take your time.

while you are learning, figure out your tightest curve, and buy the USAT diesel you want that fits

Greg

#20

Yes I’ve looked at these. I would consider one as a very last resort. Just not a style that appeals to me.

Bart

David Maynard said:

USAT does make a steamer that should work on smaller curves.