Large Scale Central

Ready to go DCC

Just got back from the NMRA Convention in Philadelphia.

Went there for four reasons:

  1. Independence Day.
  2. Ride the East Broad Top Railroad.
  3. Garden Railroad Tours.
  4. DCC Manufacturers.

Did all four.

Some items came up about DCC that I would like to have some feedback about. This will be a indoor display.

  1. Use Crest power supplies, other manufactuers has to many noise spikes.

  2. Use Stainless Steel Track, when Brass Track gets dirty you will have problems.

  3. Automatic Controls, All major manufacter where present and went to some biased and non-biased clinics. Talked to several very knowledgable people on what systems would work for automation. Two systems came to the surface, Zimo and Lens. Zimo by far had the best system, and best features for automation, Lens coming in second place.

Zimo has a complete package and Lens needs 3rd party software support. Lens has come up with many new products and has several other manufacturers make compatible products and you could fully automate a layout and both systems could still give you manual override.

Zimos new sound system is awesome, they had a Large Scale Engine on a oval of track set at about 10 degrees, when the engine went up grade the engine would sound just like it should go up a grade and downhill it would sound like it was coasting. Also no speed change up and down the grades.

OK now comments on your experiences. What I heard is fact or fiction? What else should be considered?

You had nothing good to say about the East Broad Top? One of my favorite places. Sorry, don’t know anything about DCC.

(Yes Dennis, I did shorten that sentence. Sorry!)

Ric, I think you left out a word in your message, BUT I might be wrong.

I’ll give it a shot (I do run DCC outdoors, NCE controllers, SS track)

  1. Heard good things about the Crest supplies, there are other good one also. Have not heard of noise spikes being a problem on any supply. DCC is not as finicky as it used to be.

  2. I use SS track, but if I had an indoor layout, I would be tempted to use brass or nickle silver for appearance. The shiny SS is unrealistic looking. It does take the least cleaning, but some people also belive it is so hard it accelerates wheel wear. I don’t think it is enough of a factor, but for me an indoor layout can look more like a real railroad. I’d also use real wood ties.

  3. I don’t want automatic control, so have not researched it. I would use a system with transponding, and use a computer to control it, so I could modify the program to suit me. For people who don’t want to program, pre-made control modules might be a better choice.

  4. There are a number of systems that use the back EMF to modify the sound so it relates to the load on the engine. One method is to get a motor decoder with SUSI interface, and then get a sound decoder with the SUSI interface. This way the motor decoder communicates the load information to the sound decoder. Many of these are German, and are fine products, but often with poorly translated manuals and difficult product support.

The other way is a combination decoder, like the SoundTraxx Tsunami, which is not released in LS yet, just the 1 amp units, but they are great, and the all in one decoder makes programming simpler, single address in DCC.

Digitrax has transponding also. Lenz is one of the ones that has the SUSI interface, but they typically hook up to D.E.I.T.Z. sound decoders. The German sound units usually have whistles that do not sound American. Some sound decoders are downloadable, a bit more work, but can be set up the way you want.

Regards, Greg

Dennis Cherry said:
Just got back from the NMRA Convention in Philadelphia.

Went there for four reasons:

  1. Independence Day.
  2. Ride the East Broad Top Railroad.
  3. Garden Railroad Tours.
  4. DCC Manufacturers.

Did all four.

Some items came up about DCC that I would like to have some feedback about. This will be a indoor display.

  1. Use Crest power supplies, other manufactuers has to many noise spikes.

  2. Use Stainless Steel Track, when Brass Track gets dirty you will have problems.

  3. Automatic Controls, All major manufacter where present and went to some biased and non-biased clinics. Talked to several very knowledgable people on what systems would work for automation. Two systems came to the surface, Zimo and Lens. Zimo by far had the best system, and best features for automation, Lens coming in second place.

Zimo has a complete package and Lens needs 3rd party software support. Lens has come up with many new products and has several other manufacturers make compatible products and you could fully automate a layout and both systems could still give you manual override.

Zimos new sound system is awesome, they had a Large Scale Engine on a oval of track set at about 10 degrees, when the engine went up grade the engine would sound just like it should go up a grade and downhill it would sound like it was coasting. Also no speed change up and down the grades.

OK now comments on your experiences. What I heard is fact or fiction? What else should be considered?


Dennis,

On the Switching Power supplies, if you buy the ones that are used for computer applications you can be sure you won’t have noise spikes.

If you decide to go with ZIMO you won’t need a switching power supply since the ZIMO system has built in voltage stabilisation (tightly clamped up to full load!), use a suitable size transformer and you’re in business. The ZIMO system is also variably adjustable (stepless) from 12 to 24 V, a big advantage if you run different scales (in my case N, HO/HOm and 2m).

One of the neat ZIMO features is running a wayfreight under manual control, while the rest runs on automatic, and still being able to progress down the line when traffic permits, an interesting proposition on a single track line with reasonably dense traffic.

When it comes to automation ZIMO has the advantage to have a really smart architecture which permits any of the components to start data transfer at any time. This is much faster than the polling which many of the other systems do, where each component gets addressed by the command station in a certain order. Add to that ZIMO using an industrial strength CAN-Bus which works at a higher transfer speed (128kb/s) than the other systems. Next in line are the smarter components which function as train detection und turnout activation units.
On boot-up the ZIMO system, using MX8, MX9 and STP, will know the position of every turnout on the layout and will know where every engine is.

In addition to that you get precision stopping with automatic signal control, not to mention the smoothest running engines - acceleration and braking - with the ZIMO decoders. What one gets out of the ZIMO decoders is amazing!
None of the slight jack-rabbit starts which are de rigeur with certain decoders that work in conjunction with a battery of other electronic gear. That’s one of the reasons I mentioned recently “Remove all that gear and install better stuff!”. Of course not everyone notices the jack-rabbit starts, but after one watches the proto for a while one expects the same smooth operation from the models. :wink: :slight_smile:

When looking at DCC systems one item I pay close attention to is “upgrade path”; how long will the current components be current and is there a way to keep pace with developments? Ask the DCC mfgs how they will implement Bi-Directional Communication - the next big thing which will allow even more nifty features/functions.
In ZIMO’s case it will be a matter of updating the software of the decoders which have been delivered since 2004. Rather than having to remove the decoder from the engine and send it to the factory/service depot, it can be updated in the engine by using the MXDECUP together with the ZST software. You have to buy the MXDECUP, but the ZST software is free and the upgrade software is also a free download from the Internet. Pretty nifty if you consider how other mfgs make you jump through hoops; if it isn’t that they expect you to upgrade from version 1 to version 2 and shortly thereafter to version 3, then it is the bother of removing decoders to have them updated. Time lag and money spent on shipping; if you’re lucky the upgrade will be “free” but that isn’t a sure thing.

When it comes to DCC there is more to look at than “will it move my trains in circles”! Speaking of which the ZIMO command station comes equipped with two (2) circuits to set up point to point back and forth operations i.e. street car line or captive mine train etc. etc.

Is ZIMO perfect? Not yet, but they’re working on it. :wink: :slight_smile: :smiley:

Dontcha just love the way technology is simplifying life for the LS modeller?

TonyWalsham said:
Dontcha just love the way technology is simplifying life for the LS modeller?
Tony, ;) :)

You’re right.

But remember Dennis is looking at DCC automation for an Indoor Layout. ZIMO is the cat’s meow for that kind of set-up. :wink:
Many a good laugh has been had when people ask “How would one do that with …-…?” and they keep asking on a regular basis. :slight_smile: :slight_smile: :slight_smile: Well, you can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear.

I’m always right.

Yes Dennis, I did leave a word or two out of that sentence. I corrected, but I’ll also repost.

You had nothing good to say about the East Broad Top? One of my favorite places. Did you create a post in another portion of the Forums about your EBT experience? Was it okay, just another railroad or blah?

Rick:

My wife and I have missed doing the EBT several times. When the trip to Philadelphia came up we decided EBT was the top tour this trip.

Did we enjoy the ride? YES, we also got a very raw tour of the shops, all of them. I was very impressed with the boiler room, the DC power generator that supplied electricity to the homes, and the machine shop. All the machinery to build and maintain the engines and car was left in place. On the last day of work they just swept the floors and locked the doors. Now a hand full of volunteers are slowly trying to restor some of the machinery back to operation mode.

Well the person who guided the tour told us some facts that will probaly come true in the near future.

The owner of the EBT is into keeping the EBT running. He is dedicated to the EBT. But the owner is getting up in his years and his sons have no interest in EBT. They are business people and will make “good businees decisions”.

What that means is the only remaining railroad left with all its original engines and equipment will close and pieces will be sold to the highest bidder.

The friends of the EBT know this and have worked for years to figure out how to keep the railroad operational in the future.

I am glad I got to experience this piece of history before it will probably vanish soon.

Hans:

The Zimo system is a cut above everyone elses equipment, they are the leaders in DCC technology. I was at there booth at the NMRA Convention discussing the system and my wife came up, she looked at the Zime system and she told me we needed one for a garden railroad.

BTW Zimo i believe uses Railraod & Co. software br Friewald. It is a very nice package for bringing your railraod alive either manual or automatic mode or both.

Lenz has finally started improving their products and I give them second place.

OK now how does everyone else rate DCC equipment?

It depends what you want out of your models .
If you want to run your stuff like a shop window display , try Zimo , I have never seen it except in adverts and displays , but given the free advertising it gets , sounds a bit desperate for customers .
I use Lenz because I like to stay involved with operating the trains and not just stand back and watch repetitive movement .
I also use MTS by LGB which is logical because they come ready fitted ,or can be readily fitted with after market stuff available from them .
I also use Radio Control , by far the most flexible system to use , and overall considerably cheaper --nobody ever seems to mention that aspect . My R/C Transmitters and receivers can by almost infinitely swopped around because of the nature of the plug-ins , the fixed fittings are mainly cabling . I actually share the R/C between rail and Road Trucks . I use the R/C in conjunction with track control and power , and am quite happy properly controlling a minimum of traffic because there is nothing particularly clever in sending umpteen trains to their doom by not having enough hands and feet .
So how many trains do you wish to control at a time ?
If you haven’t made your mind up , there is a lot to think about .
Make the wrong decision and you could have an expensive failure .
Make sure you get proper backup .
Mike

Mike Morgan said:
................................................... I have never seen it except in adverts and displays , but given the free advertising it gets , sounds a bit desperate for customers . .................................................. Mike
Far from it, just providing information when information is requested. ;) :)

As Dennis mentions when it comes to NMRA-DCC automation, ZIMO is way above the rest of the contenders.
The most bang for the buck is the ZIMO-STP combo, simply tops!
Since so many Large Scalers use the ZIMO decoders (references on request :wink: ) even if they use a different system, that sure speaks volumes.

BTW for anyone interested; when LGB-MTS was still stuck with their serial F protocol (slow as molasses and as error prone as …) people who wanted a top notch decoder regularly would get the ZIMO product since ZIMO made sure it would understand the archaic MTS F function and convert it to what was called for.
In clear text that means, one can strip a LGB engine of all “the junk”, install the ZIMO decoder, wire the functions and still run with that antiquated 14 speed step system. However now one can program the decoder to get s-m-o-o-t-h starts and stops. and of course one can add a few extras to make use of all the functions.
If one doesn’t want to go to the trouble (there is very little demand for discarded LGB electronics innards) one can remove just the decoder use an interface cable available from ZIMO and be done.

Those in the know are also aware that LGB uses an “odd” system to assign the different functions and quite often it is impossible to get some rhyme and reason into the system i.e. have consistency across the board so that a whistle always gets called up with the some function regardless of which engine it is.
Remove “the junk”, install a ZIMO decoder and program the function mapping according to your own requirements, not according to the whims emanating from the “Vaterhaus” in Nürnberg. The ZIMO function mapping has no problem with the NMRA RPs :wink: :).

More ZIMO features will be mentioned … to be continued.

Or as an alternate, download http://www.mrsonline.net/pdf/ZIMO_Systempr_DCC_2006_High_E_small.pdf and read what some of the differences are. Pages 12 and 13 of the PDF also give a glimpse of what is in the pipe. No pipe dreams!!!

A predictable shrill response to a post which made no mention of Hans . Sad case . Now we wait for his accolytes . Big Dog and Me-Too . Hmm

Mike Morgan said:
A predictable shrill response to a post which made no mention of Hans . Sad case . Now we wait for his accolytes . Big Dog and Me-Too . Hmm

Mike, Have you ever noticed that you make more spelling and punctuation mistakes when you get upset?? :wink: :slight_smile:

Oh BTW, your post didn’t need to mention me. Adding some more info on what the advantages of ZIMO are certainly fits this thread perfectly.

Ya know, petrol isn’t what this one needs.

A MK 45 Nuke-tipped torpedo, maybe.

Make it two, just to be sure :smiley:

one a stern shot?

Ah , you’ve found my weak spot Dave . Fire one , fire two .
Mike

Curmudgeon said:
Ya know, petrol isn't what this one needs.

A MK 45 Nuke-tipped torpedo, maybe.


Dave,

Tsk, tsk, tsk…

Well, you’re damned if you do and you’re damned if you don’t.

Some time ago Mike M complained on that “other forum” about being ignored. Well, he isn’t being ignored here, is he??
But now Mike gets upset when people pay attention to what he’s writing. Strange, quite strange.