Large Scale Central

Raised Layouts and Grades

General Discussion
#1

So I’m in the planning/early stages of building my layout #2 finally after all these years of no layout. My initial surveys of the yard show that I’m going to need about a 50’ run that has a a good 2 or 4% grade. The rest of the layout is planned to have no grades. I’m building my layout aka Port Orford style, so it will be about 3’ high.

Clearly the track will have the 2 or 4% grade, but the benchwork? Keep the bench work level, and stair step it down, or make the bench work at the same grade as the track? I’m thinking if I stair step the bench work it will make the grade more visible, where as if I build the bench work at the same grade as the track, it will visually trick the mind into thinking the grade is less or none existant.

Thoughts? I will try to post some photos of the area later today.

#2

A three foot high bench may seem reasonable now, young feller, but, trust me, in twenty years, it will be unreasonable. Add a foot, you will thank me later. There is a reason that Port Orford is chest high.

I’d go with stair step, just for the novelty.

#3

Steve Featherkile said:

A three foot high bench may seem reasonable now, young feller, but, trust me, in twenty years, it will be unreasonable. Add a foot, you will thank me later. There is a reason that Port Orford is chest high.

I’d go with stair step, just for the novelty.

The staging yard track leaving the garage is 43" above the ground. I would like to keep most of the layout that height. That said the slope of the yard is such that if I have no grades portions of the layout will be 10’ high… So I have to drop the grade at the beginning, and then it will average out to somewhere around 36-48" above the ground, with a duck under portion about 60"…

Pictures would really help…

#4

I just visited an interesting garden with a slope and a neat railroad imposed on it.

You can see the house patio at the top (lower right corner) and the track at grade. The “pit” was dug out of the slope (by hand) and includes stairs at the RH side down. In the pit are benches for live steamers, working on stock, etc., and the railroad continues around the outside on high supports over the slope.

#5

That’s a lot different. My layout starts at chest high, then, within 40 feet, the ground raises to meet the track, and then the track floats on the ground for the next long time, then the ground drops away, so the last 32 feet is knee high. It was the best I could do, given what I had to work with. I hate working on track at ground level.

#6

Well I went lower, my back likes sitting on a chair as I do fiddly track work. The ground runs at about 5% grade while I limit my track’s grade to between 2 and 3%.

My first choice was based on the outside novelty and using back ground scenery as part of the show. Benches encourage kids to sit and watch some too.

I stepped my bench work down to emphasize the wash it travels through, but then back up to track level when that wasn’t needed and the track curves through the hills again.

#7

Part of this problem is I don’t visually want a railroad grade. The area I’m modeling is flat farm land outside of the city of Redmond, Wa. So I think stair stepping the benchwork would make it look like a grade, where as if I slope the benchwork, I might be able to trick the eye into thinking the track is level?

Here I’m standing at one of the lowest points in the yard.

Kind of hard to see, but this stringline runs from the staging yard height to the interception point of where the layout starts to be level. About a 1’ drop, and I’m guessing about a 50’ run (the railroad will go along the fence line, so I’m thinking about a 2% slope). At the lowest point the stringline is about waist high for me.

Taking that same data point and running across the yard, we get this view. This same level is about eye height in one of the lowest spots in the yard. Kind of where that pile of rocks my kids piled up. This is where I’m going to have a duck under for access to the other side of the tracks.

Looking toward the other end of the yard.

I’m still working on drawing the CAD design to allow for the maximum size curves, but the general layout design will be to parallel the fence lines making a point to point layout. Next weekend, if I can get my Dad to help, I’m going to rent a laser level, or surveyor’s equipment to get a more accurate measurement of the landscape.

Here is a very, very rough sketch of the plan.

#8

I started mine at waist level, then let the ground gradually rise up to meet it.

I didn’t have a fence to follow either. And I didn’t want it to be too intrusive.

I also wanted to keep the “Garden” part of it, too.

There is a slight grade between the bottom photo and the top photo. About 2-3%.

#9

Looks like you have a nice yard to work with. What are the dimensions?

I’ll be watching closely.

Shane

#10

2% grade will limit your train lengths a bit. 4% will really limit your train lengths. So even if the bench-work changes height off the ground I would try and limit the actual grade to close to 2% if possible. Doing the bench-work continuously to visually hide the grade might work, but when it rains, the water will want to flow downhill. Something to consider if you use mulch or dirt on your bench-work.

#11

David Maynard said:

2% grade will limit your train lengths a bit. 4% will really limit your train lengths. So even if the bench-work changes height off the ground I would try and limit the actual grade to close to 2% if possible. Doing the bench-work continuously to visually hide the grade might work, but when it rains, the water will want to flow downhill. Something to consider if you use mulch or dirt on your bench-work.

I’m not to concerned about train lengths, as I once pulled 38 cars up a 4% grade on Dave Goodson’s layout during clean up in the rain… (https://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-wink.gif)I don’t even currently own 38 pieces of rolling stock! Most trains will be about 8 cars in length. I’m modeling a branch line, so 4-8 cars will be about normal.

The point about water run off is a good one. Humm. Doing the stair stepping might help eliminate some of this problem/

#12

Shane Stewart said:

Looks like you have a nice yard to work with. What are the dimensions?

I’ll be watching closely.

Shane

The backyard is about 180’x 80’ roughly. Only going to be a total of 3 spurs: Lumber & Cold Storage Facility, Feed Mill and Diary. The plan is to keep the structures as close to scale as possible. For example the feed mill I started probably 10+ years ago is 6’x7’ x 4’ tall.

I was thinking about having the track down by spring of 2020, but we will see how much I can get done this summer during break.

#13

I agree with your idea to let the bench flow with the grade. It’s how your fence was done, so you are used to seeing the slope in the fence rails…

In your long shot above the grade doesn’t look like much but in the shot below, the tree emphasizes it.

All that means is that when taking pictures keep the anything large and vertical out of the shot and keep the baseline of your camera even with the bench. If you really wanted to go nuts, you could lean any foreground elements to be square with the bench. Would look great in pictures, but in person - not so much!

OR - you could combine both methods. Use long sections with a slight slope then step down (or up) to the next one.

#14

Craig Townsend said:

So I’m in the planning/early stages of building my layout #2 finally after all these years of no layout. My initial surveys of the yard show that I’m going to need about a 50’ run that has a a good 2 or 4% grade. The rest of the layout is planned to have no grades. I’m building my layout aka Port Orford style, so it will be about 3’ high.

Clearly the track will have the 2 or 4% grade, but the benchwork? Keep the bench work level, and stair step it down, or make the bench work at the same grade as the track? I’m thinking if I stair step the bench work it will make the grade more visible, where as if I build the bench work at the same grade as the track, it will visually trick the mind into thinking the grade is less or none existent.

Thoughts? I will try to post some photos of the area later today.

Here’s some points you may want to consider, in your decision to do benchwork in a stair-step fashion vs. a sloped table.

  • When setting your grades, you’ll need reference datums for elevations. If you step your benchwork in even (say, 1-foot) increments, it’s that much easier to do the math for each roadbed support. Yes, you can always do a water level, but that takes setup time; while level benchwork is an ever-present datum.
  • When you need a yard or other flat area, it’s easier to frame it up. All the supports are the same height.
  • When you place temporary work surfaces on your framing, your tools or beverage cans won’t want to roll off. (http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-foot-in-mouth.gif)

You’ve got a great property, looking forward to seeing what you come up with!

#15

Steve said it all.

in the long run you’ll want a bench, that lets you stand straight, while working or playing. (how high that is in inches depends on your own hight)

i would say, stepped benches are fine, if you like to model cliffs, trestles, ramps and the like.

inclined benches are a pain to build correctly, but save a lot of landscaping.

#16

Cliff,

Good points about flat surfaces on a sloped topography.

My plan is to keep the actual bench width pretty narrow except for the “town” and industry sections. I’m thinking a 1-2’ wide section is plenty wide enough for the ROW. Just enough space to plant the ladder roadbed, get a nice ballast profile.

#17

Craig, lots of good information and ideas tossed at you especially Steve’s!!

How I addressed my grade and height problems on the new line is here. https://www.largescalecentral.com/forums/topic/26189/shasta-pacific-3-0

if you want to take a look, very similar issues as yours.

Rick

#18

David Maynard said:

2% grade will limit your train lengths a bit.

NOPE

#19

Craig Townsend said:

I’m not to concerned about train lengths, as I once pulled 38 cars up a 4% grade on Dave Goodson’s layout during clean up in the rain.

Yep

#20

" Rooster " said:

Craig Townsend said:

I’m not to concerned about train lengths, as I once pulled 38 cars up a 4% grade on Dave Goodson’s layout during clean up in the rain.

Yep

Yup.