Large Scale Central

Raised layout building material

General Discussion
#1

So as I enter my planning and design stage for the new layout, I’m trying to think of ways/materials to use for construction of raised roadbed.

Option 1: Pressure treated wood on concrete pier blocks like Fred Mills and others use. Pressure treated wood for the base.

Option 2: Pressure treated wood for the posts on pier blocks, PVC trim boards for the “base”. Kind of like what Ken did.

In either option 1 or 2 pier blocks could be substituted with concrete holes with metal brackets.

Option 3: PVC posts in concrete, PVC trim boards for the base. Kind of like what our long gone friend Dirk was doing. But he was planning on burying everything.

Option 4: Steel tubing (say 1/2") in concrete. Make a T at the top with say 1/4" x 1" or 2" welded to the top of the post, then make a frame,with the same. Angle iron or similar welded about every 1-2’ to make a frame. This was my BIL suggestion. Once painted, it should last for a long time. BIL was thinking it $4.5-5 a linear foot. Haven’t costed out wood plus fasteners yet.

Thoughts? Ideas? For those that have used pressure treated wood, how are you planning one eventual replacement? Decks seem to last 15-20 years in this area. I’m 35, so 20 years puts a rebuild at 55, right around retirement age. Which could mean house relocation or not…

I’m in the rainy Seattle region. I’m guessing total layout run will eventually be under 500 linear feet.

#2

I would not put wood into the ground in any case, encased in concrete or not. The wood will rot.

for wood, either the concrete pier blocks, or embed the metal post bracket in the concrete, and leave the bracket about 1/2" or more above the concrete so the wood cannot stand in water.

I think 1/2" steel tubing is not strong enough (when you say tubing, I’m thinking conduit here, not steel pipe, which is stronger but still too light a gauge I think).

I would go more with the PVC if you can, less to rot and paint.

Greg

#3

Cost wise, I think the pier blocks are cheaper ($8) vs the metal bracket ($6) plus bagged concrete.

And yes, planning on keeping wood out of standing water.

Seeing that only PVC trim is the only thing available here in the PNW, I’m not sure how dimensionally stable or understable it would be.

#4

Craig Townsend said: I’m 35, so 20 years puts a rebuild at 65, right around retirement age.

You need to brush up on your arithmetic. (https://largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-undecided.gif)

#5

Craig, although I do agree with Greg, wood will eventually rot, I have had more issues with treated wood rotting prematurely where it has been penetrated by a nail or screw vs in the ground. I have a large deck off the back of my house that is built completely of treated southern yellow pine (Yella Wood). It is supported by 30 or so 6x6 posts that have been in the ground, in concrete for 16 years now with no signs of rot. However, I’ve had to replace probably 25-30% of the 2x6 deck boards and about the same percentage of the joists. All the joists were rotten where the deck boards were attached. So, as you’ve stated, if you build it out of treated wood, you best realize it will have to be replaced at some point. But heck, the 1:1 RR have to replace their lines too, so look at it as being prototypical (https://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-wink.gif)

I am planning an elevated RR myself and contemplating the same issues as you. I’v seriously considered pre-fabbing concrete T-posts and building a wooden structure on top of the posts, but that doesn’t eliminate the issues I mentioned earlier. Like you, we do not have access to any structural PVC. I’m also considering building the layout atop trestle bents similar to what Devon did for a portion of his layout. Doesn’t solve the rotting wood problem, but would give the layout some additional eye appeal.

I don’t think I’ve answered any of your questions, but simply confirmed your concerns with the building materials. Maybe someone else will bring a new, novel idea to the table. I’ll be watching this thread with great interests. Thanks for getting it started.

#6

Joe,

I’m a history teacher, not a math teacher…(http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-undecided.gif)

I blame my kids… Okay, so 35 plus my toes and fingers, I get 55.

Decks around here seem to start needing replacement around 15 years. Just wondering if steel or PVC posts would be a better alternative for long term.

Has anyone done PVC posts? Any cost savings with PVC would be wiped out with a possible need for fittings. Steel seems like it would be easier.

#7

pvc fittings cheap… glue cheap, metal rusts… I vote PVC

#8

How High?

Wide enough for just track or with scenery too?

Live plants? What kind of scenery? Buildings or facades? Feed Mill?

#9

John,

Some sections just track width, so say 6"-1’. Then the “town” areas much wider 3, 4, 5, or even 6’ wide.

How high? Average of 36"-48" high. Due to the ground sloping, a few sections might be 50-60" high (track stays mostly level).

Eventually a few ground covers, and/or potted plants. Water via a drip system. But that is not a given.

Hopefully this break I can measure the yard and start air on a mockup. That will give me a better visual of size and shapes.

#10

One of our neighbors has a horse ffarm with PVC fencing. Probably 15 years old. Lots of broken bits, trees fall, horses push. I dont think PVC is for ever either unless you can baby it

#11

Treated wood will delay rot, but this wood will warp and do it in less than 2 years. Great for a tunerville trolley!!

#12

The way I look at it is anything outside exposed to the elements is going to need to be maintained. I’ve had a PT wood deck on the back of my house for close to 40 years. Granted it gets a coat of paint about every 3 or 4 years, but so far I haven’t had to replace anything except 2 of the supporting posts on the driveway end. They all sit on concrete piers that keep them off the ground.

As for the layout, it’s still too new to comment on how that’s holding up, but I expect at some point, something will need to be replaced. But I’m reasonably pleased with it so far. It’s a hell of a lot easier to maintain then when it was directly on the ground. Just my 2 cents worth.

#13

My main yard is built on a bench. I used the formed concrete blocks that accept a 4x4. I think these are what you described as “pier blocks” The legs are PT4x4, the sides are 2x6 with plywood on the top that I painted. I should have put rolled roofing on the plywood to extend its life. My smaller older yard is built on the ground with a 2x4 base and painted plywood on top. This one has been in place since 2007 and needs to be replaced due to rotted sections.

I think you will be fine with the block footings with PT4x4 and painted wood or PT sides. The deck is what will take the brunt of nature like the roof on your house. PVC “wood” is not cheap and it is not as rigid as wood. I would say a plywood deck with a roofing material over it would be solid for decades.

#14

When you said metal tubing I think you mean the square tubing, but then to build with that you need a welder and lessons on welding (unless you already know how). Then it will require regular painting to extend its life, aluminum would be too cost prohibitive I think . The concrete piers and 4x4 will probably be your best method, and like others have said , with regular painting/ staining and water sealant it should last. If you use screws instead of nails you should be able to remove a post or other parts one at a time if needed to replace, years down the road, eliminating any areas of standing water will obviously do wonders for longevity. My layout is on dirt, and I am in dry desert so can’t help a lot with practical advise.

#15

Eric Schade said:

One of our neighbors has a horse ffarm with PVC fencing. Probably 15 years old. Lots of broken bits, trees fall, horses push. I dont think PVC is for ever either unless you can baby it

PVC (pipe)*needs to be painted, if not buried. It gets brittle and turns tan in color and is not UV protected.

edit; (pipe) added

#16

PVC fencing material does not have UV problems like PVC pipe does, it is Vinyl maybe that is the difference.

"Vinyl fence is a type of plastic fence made with PVC (polyvinyl chloride). The PVC resin is combined with special ingredients that give vinyl fence exceptional impact strength, durability and weatherability. Vinyl is an easy-care alternative to other fence materials."

However if you have ever seen Vinyl fencing in a very hot enviroment it can begin to look like noodles strung between posts not to mention what happens to it if there is a grass or brush fire.

As was pointed out (no matter what the ads say) not much for strength just for pretty. Most installations I have seen for animals include a steel T post installed in the concrete tight against the Vinyl post for strength plus a Field Fencing can be installed to contain smaller critters.

#17

Since I did a trestle bent theme, instead of pier blocks I poured pads to land all my bents on. Then used pressure treated wood to make the stringers. From there up its all PVC and screen and landscape fabric. Th main reason for this is no standing water on any part of the raised layout. And so far so good. No warping which I was worried about and no water on my posts or platform. I think the more we can do to take the water away the longer it will all last. Of course this is for the raised bench section.

On the raised bed portion I sunk holes with a post hole digger two feet down, filled withe concrete and then stuck PVC in it to fill the pipe with concrete as well. then a cedar ladder system was built.

So far I am very pleased. No heaving issues, no standing water, so far no big misalignments. The only (non) issue I have is the dirt is settling and exposing my ladder. But I knew full well this would happen and the ladder is staying put.

I second the notion of no wood in the ground. I don’t care how good it is, even pressure treated rots. If it HAS to go in the ground use plastic or metal. Then attach your wood to it.

#18

Givens;

No plywood, no wood touching ground. Pier blocks seem a little cheaper than brackets. However, they might take longer to level, set up. Dig holes, backfill with some rock, pour concrete, set brackets.

Pier blocks also allow for changes to take place. Theoretically, using pier blocks and screw construction would allow for the whole thing to be moved if the need ever arose.

I like the idea of using PVC piping for the ladder and support, but it really needs to be buried. If the survey shows that areas will be say 2’ or less above ground, then PVC might be alternative, but then I would have to create a retaining wall of some sort to contain the dirt.

Wood might be the easiest after all, even knowing that it will need eventual replacement. Heck, I’m using cedar ties for the layout because I’m too cheap and can’t afford llagas ties. So those ties only last 5-8 years.

If I used plastic wood it would be that PVC trim pieces as those are available. The fencing stuff is a no go.

#19

The piers are instantly and easily adjustable, vs. a hole in the ground filled with concrete. The pro’s and con’s of each vs the other are pretty easy. The piers won’t give you the stability that something in the ground will, but when the layout is all connected, seems to be plenty stable. Piers probably don’t look as nice as post in the ground, but to me, the adjustability in case of frost heave and layout changes trumps that.

Wood for the structure is a big difference than wooden ties, wood will warp if it’s the platform for the track (supporting posts is no problem), you don’t have the mold and mildew problem that the high humidity states have, but you do get pretty warm and pretty cold.

Also for consideration in the structure is the cement based trim, often used on the outside of the house. Weathers well, does not rot.

Greg

#20

So many options for elevating a railway.