Large Scale Central

R1 - the problem, that can't be avoided indoors

Indoor and Micro
#1

those, who build an indoors layout often can not evade some R1 (2ft. radius) curves.

(even in my 46 by 16 ft. room the only way, to not use R1 in some places, would have

been a boring one-loop-roundy-round)

so we have to live with the problems.
as for instance the ugly overhang of longer locos and stock
(the (parcial) solution: try to hide most curves behind buildings or in tunnels.)

the idea of this thread is, to collect solutions for the known R1 problems.

on former layouts i have used my R1 curves only with short stock. (1ft. and shorter).

now, as my new layout is so far advanced, that i have a (shortened) complete loop.
so it was time for driving tests.

first locos only - put in some jumpers.

then short roling stock (4 wheels) - prolongated some changes of grade, to eliminate

uncoupling.

then 16" (40cm)(8 wheels) long cars. - oh, oh…

there were some points of the track, where the cars derailed.

remarkable was, that always the first aixle of the front-truck derailed towards the

outside of a curve. and, that by changing the direction of the trains there were other

points of derailment.
and, notably, the problem got greater, the more weight i gave the cars.

as it is well known, that body-mounted couplers, or even truck-mounted

knucklecouplers don’t like sharp curves, so the cars are fitted with bottleopeners. (true to

Fr. Fred’s gospel)

well, closer inspection showed, that the derailments all occurred on the last four or five

inches of an R1 curve, where a straight followed.

setting up a short test track, i could visualize the problem.

position of the loops in the R1 curve:

position of the loops, when the first car is already on the straight, the second still in the

curve:

so i supposed, that the coupler of the first car did push the coupler and truck of the second car out of the curve.

my solution:
i toyed around with guardrails.
(for the moment just “glued” down with silicon-sealer)

it works.

do you have some tricks/solutions for R1 problems as well?

#2

I like the look of the guard rails!

On my wide rad switches I milled off the inside flange of the guard rail to get it much closer to the stock rail. I’m not sure you would want it much closer with 2 axle cars rolling thru, but perhaps it would be something to try out if needed.

#3

thanks for mentioning this.
after i read it, i took some different wheelsets, to see, how they fit.

they all showed the same. when i press them against the guardrail, the outer wheel rides with its rim just upon the outer railhead.
and, some of the not so broad wheels have enough space, to fall between rail and guardrail.

so it might be very possible, that i will have to follow your example, once i test all my rolling stock.

#4

Korm, another idea is to add an easement to the curves, that way the train eases into and out of the curves. Many indoor modelers do a quick and dirty easement by placing a piece of larger diameter (radius), curve at the ends of the smaller curve.

#5

yes, David, I am doing that as well. - where ever possible.

but in a room of 16’ by 46’ there is not much space avaiable, once one has squeezed 450ft. of track into it.
i have tryed, to have eased curves, where the trains can be seen (most curves on the layout are individually bent) and planned to hide the remaining R1s in tunnels.
as i expressed in the title, R1s are unavoidable…

#6

My solution is rather simple, short stock. Nothing I have on the harbor layout is much bigger than a 20-25’ car. Also my speeds will be very slow, car shunting not express trains, also short trains, no more than 3 cars long, it is a VERY small layout don’t ya know.

#7

quote: “… it is a VERY small layout don’t ya know.”

well, if my memory does not deceive me, i might have seen a pic or two from your layout(s) somewhere… ;-))

untill recently the LGB four-wheelers were my longest roling stock also.
and all my sidings at the stations are calculated for a loco, tender and max five of these cars.

and then i got a christmas present from my daughters - a newqida passenger car. 2 foot long!
as the price - quality relation seems to be favorable, it was quickly followed by a purchase of 20 lowside gondola/flat cars from the same manufacturer.
as they are 1’ 4" long, and 8 wheelers, now i have to make some minor adjustments to the layout.

#8

BTW it all depends on the config of the room e.g. the following uses R3 for most curves except one 914mm curve and Staging which I would change today after my R1 experience. Since things have progressed I would use Train-Line R2 for staging. Fewer tracks, but bullet proof

(http://www.rhb-grischun.ca/F-PIX/LSC/LGB_RhB_ver1.jpg)

But it took a bit of shoehorning to get there. Did they build it like that? I don’t know, having a dream and then building it are not quite the same. Easy to dream, a lot of finicky work to actually build it.

PS The observer will notice that there is room for tons of scenery and enough structures to make it plausible and readily recognizable.

#9

Indoors several of my yard tracks have R1 switches, but R1 curves have been eliminated. I have some shorter Fn3 cars with body mounted couplers that I can get through a single R1 switch with a very short loco (Porter). Some of the longer cars will get through too, but not all. This limits what can be placed on these tracks, but doesn’t stop me.

The new siding at Willow Hill has an R1 switch. My Porter is stationed there to shunt cars one at a time from the siding to/from the arrival/departure track at top right. The R1 curves at left have been replaced with 10 footers…

(http://lsc.cvsry.com/post4/WillowHillExpansion-00.JPG)

(http://lsc.cvsry.com/post4/WillowHillExpansion-01.JPG)

#10

Korm Kormsen said:

yes, David, I am doing that as well. - where ever possible.

but in a room of 16’ by 46’ there is not much space avaiable, once one has squeezed 450ft. of track into it.
i have tryed, to have eased curves, where the trains can be seen (most curves on the layout are individually bent) and planned to hide the remaining R1s in tunnels.
as i expressed in the title, R1s are unavoidable…

Gee, I don’t even have that much track in my backyard…

#11

David, that is one advantage of living in a country without building permits.
one builds very cheap. = spacy…

Jon, i got just two LGB R3 turnouts, the rest is R1.

where i got (passing) sidings, i tried to build the line at an 30° angel to the station. thus evading S-curves.

if the scenery “gives explanations” for this, it does not look too bad.
(in this place the passing siding is on mainstreet, and outside of the village is a small lake, the line has to evade)

at stations, where i have to go straight, i have half a foot straight, then a R2 curve. - that seems to work with all my roling stock.

where the cars frequently derailed was a bad combination: 2 ft. R1, 2 ft. straight (all with up-grade of 3%) then a straight of 5% grade.

a very bad combination, i know. but i need the space, the short curves and two straights give me in the corner for fat-man-access (because the curve will disappear in a mountain.)

in the pic, at the lower right edge is the place, where i had the derailings.

editet: replaced bad pic-link with working one.

#12

HJ looks like dam nice track plan to me

:wink:

#13

The Train_Li R3 is 3 foot radius, 6 foot diameter and even the newer Aristo Pacific will go through it without derailing. A little longer than the R1 by LGB and other makers of the 2 foot radius switch, but not as long as the bigger switches.

Also, these have a metal frog.

#14

Well, much of the frog is metal…

The idea is to make it so the power to the frog is not switched, good… but it’s not an all metal frog with no dead spots.

Greg

#15

Looks to me that when the railcar enters the curve, the vertical “tang” rides to the outside until it puts enough pressure against the arc to force the car off the tracks.

Is it possible to cut back the tang a bit (to increase the slop) so that there is more clearance such that it puts less pressure against the arc (i.e., lets the tang ride further out) in the tight curve?

#16

Do you have this problem with couplers or just hooks & loops?

#17

Greg Elmassian said:

Well, much of the frog is metal…

The idea is to make it so the power to the frog is not switched, good… but it’s not an all metal frog with no dead spots.

Greg

If there isn’t switched power to the frog, then its just a metal frog just for the sake of being a metal frog. Maybe a creative model railroader could add a SPDT micro switch and a wire and make it powered.

#18

The point is that the frog is not all metal, part plastic, so there are “power gaps”…

A solid frog would not have power gaps…

Greg

#19

Sean,
i have put aside everything save loop & hook couplers for the moment.
these got sideways slack of nearly half an inch to each side. and i need this slack! got some S-curves, where the straight in the middle is just five inches long.knuckles, or even body mounted couplers are out of the question.

Todd,
not even with help of a dictionary did i understand the possible meaning of “tang”.
(save, if you mean the hook. - in that case, i think one could not cut it. every cut , that would give length, would cost hight. ie. lessen the quality of the connection,)
there might be another possible solution.
to connect the cars with drawbars, that are screwed or riveted to the drawbar stumps of the trucks. thus i would have two pivoting points in every connection.

concerning plastic frogs, i don’t see any problem.
if all rails, including the moving parts, are elecrified, there is just one possibility for failure.
four wheeled locos with a traction wheel, but without sliders.
from my point of view, the easiest remedy for that is a tender or other car with one or more pick-up aixles behind the loco.

#20

Yes, the hook.

I can’t tell from the top view, but it looks like it could be “dished out” a bit without loosing height. I’m also looking at a few different types that I have lying around and they look like they could be dished out . You may try one just to see how far you could back-cut the curve without compromising the strength. This could allow for a bit more swing in the corner.