Large Scale Central

Quick DCC question

Electronics DCC
#1

I am going to venture down the path of DCC on my indoor. I have a pretty okay understanding of the basics in wiring. I understand that the power and signal come from a main set of bus wires under the track that feeders are then attached to the track much the same as conventional DC.

My quick question is this. In order to get into the closet I will be making a section of lift out track. The bus wires will be run under another section of track to feed the two “halves” of my layout so no concern there. I think I know the answer to this but would I wire the lift out section like it is a stand alone block. Can I just attach a set of feeders from the permanent section of track adjacent to the lift out section and utilize a plug in that feeder line to disconnect the removable section?

#2

As long as you get “left and right” rails correct when you connect, there shouldnt be a problem.

#3

Bob McCown said:

As long as you get “left and right” rails correct when you connect, there shouldn’t be a problem.

Thanks Bob.

You confirmed what I already figured. As long as I treat it as any other block and keep the right wire to the right rail I don’t see why it wouldn’t work. My only real concern would be it the plug would cause any issue with the signal but as long as it is a clean connection I don’t see why not.

But I also am totally unaware of any “unseen” issue specific to DCC that I might be missing.

#4

Devon Sinsley said:

I am going to venture down the path of DCC on my indoor. I have a pretty okay understanding of the basics in wiring. I understand that the power and signal come from a main set of bus wires under the track that feeders are then attached to the track much the same as conventional DC.

My quick question is this. In order to get into the closet I will be making a section of lift out track. The bus wires will be run under another section of track to feed the two “halves” of my layout so no concern there. I think I know the answer to this but would I wire the lift out section like it is a stand alone block. Can I just attach a set of feeders from the permanent section of track adjacent to the lift out section and utilize a plug in that feeder line to disconnect the removable section?

I think you’re spot on here, but if it were me, I think I’d make the block be longer than just the lift out section - just so you have time to stop a train if the bridge is not there…or, perhaps, I’ve misunderstood and there’s a better way to do that…

#5

Bruce Chandler said:

Devon Sinsley said:

I am going to venture down the path of DCC on my indoor. I have a pretty okay understanding of the basics in wiring. I understand that the power and signal come from a main set of bus wires under the track that feeders are then attached to the track much the same as conventional DC.

My quick question is this. In order to get into the closet I will be making a section of lift out track. The bus wires will be run under another section of track to feed the two “halves” of my layout so no concern there. I think I know the answer to this but would I wire the lift out section like it is a stand alone block. Can I just attach a set of feeders from the permanent section of track adjacent to the lift out section and utilize a plug in that feeder line to disconnect the removable section?

I think you’re spot on here, but if it were me, I think I’d make the block be longer than just the lift out section - just so you have time to stop a train if the bridge is not there…or, perhaps, I’ve misunderstood and there’s a better way to do that…

Bruce as I understand the key fundamental difference between “blocks” in DC and in DCC is that the same signal (and power) is being sent to all blocks at one time. The only reason to break them up in blocks is trouble shooting shorts. So telling a particular locomotive with a particular address to stop is sent to everywhere on the layout and regardless of where it is. So If I do understand it right I will be able to start and stop anywhere on or near the bridge.

But that is my understanding and could be way off the mark. But with that said if their is a reason to make the block a longer run thats easy enough becuase if i use plugs on each end of the bridge it is as if it is a continuous run of wire at that point.

#6

Even with DCC, you can block off any section where you want to automatically stop and start a train like in EPL. The power to the one rail will be off though so no lights or sounds.

But, depending on which decoder you use, it might support Automatic Braking Control (ABC). Zimo, Lenz and some others have it. Using a diode array, you can use the blocks to automatically slow a train to a stop while the lights, sounds and smoke still run. Then have it automatically start again just like in EPL. Instead of powering off one rail completely, the power is still there just reduced by a few volts. The decoder detects this voltage drop and executes a slow to a stop command. You can program where you want the train to stop and it comes pretty close to the mark each time. Note, if the mass of the consist changes, ie. one time you run a few passenger cars, and the next time you run a long string of freight cars, the distance the train takes to stop will be affected so try to keep the consists consistent. When you want the train to start back up, bypass the diode array and provide full power to both rails.

Since, the wires are also carrying the signal, with DCC, too many line connections may cause signal interference.

#7

Derailed said:

Even with DCC, you can block off any section where you want to automatically stop and start a train like in EPL. The power to the one rail will be off though so no lights or sounds.

But, depending on which decoder you use, it might support Automatic Braking Control (ABC). Zimo, Lenz and some others have it. Using a diode array, you can use the blocks to automatically slow a train to a stop while the lights, sounds and smoke still run. Then have it automatically start again just like in EPL. Instead of powering off one rail completely, the power is still there just reduced by a few volts. The decoder detects this voltage drop and executes a slow to a stop command. You can program where you want the train to stop and it comes pretty close to the mark each time. Note, if the mass of the consist changes, ie. one time you run a few passenger cars, and the next time you run a long string of freight cars, the distance the train takes to stop will be affected so try to keep the consists consistent. When you want the train to start back up, bypass the diode array and provide full power to both rails.

Since, the wires are also carrying the signal, with DCC, too many line connections may cause signal interference.

All this sound good, but for most of us, well me for sure, it’s more then I would want to do and have to wire into the system. I would think that the lift-out should be a powered section that extends X number of feet on each side of the lift-out to prevent any runoffs from happing when the lift-out is not in place. Now what do you do when you have a Dead Rail system and you remove the lift-out, what is your protection there, big pillows on the floor to catch the trains.

trainman

#8

While I understand that DCC “can” do a tremendous amount I am likely never going to realize even close to its full potential. I can see it if you had an HO or N empire and were running lots of trains at once and wanted operating signals and such. For me this will be a very minimal layout running one or two locomotives at any one time. Minimal switching. The only reason I even want to go DCC as opposed to just straight DC is to have programmable station stops some automatic sound triggers, and the ability to throw turnouts from the hand piece.

So my question really is just about how to make the thing work. But Bruce and John both made an excellent point that just now sunk in what they were trying to say. If i extend the “bridge block” further in either direction then if the bridge is out then signal is lost to that block and trains have no choice but to stop and not crash on the floor. Its a fail safe. I was thinking the ability of me to stop it, I wasn’t thinking at it from the standpoint of a fail safe stop. Easy enough to do for sure. Rail gaps a few feet in either direction of the bridge and a plug at each end of the bridge and I would have a continuous block at that point.

Just for my own clarification, with the bridge out, other section of the track would still operate right? As long as their is no dead short? I am new to DCC for sure and only have begun to wrap my mind around it. But For things like reversing loops and my bridge there will be physical separation in these blocks right? As in gaped rails. Each block will be fed by feeders so even if one section is not working the other sections are right? I realize a short is different and shuts the system down but that’s a different problem than missing rails, correct?

#9

Devon Sinsley said:

While I understand that DCC “can” do a tremendous amount I am likely never going to realize even close to its full potential. I can see it if you had an HO or N empire and were running lots of trains at once and wanted operating signals and such. For me this will be a very minimal layout running one or two locomotives at any one time. Minimal switching. The only reason I even want to go DCC as opposed to just straight DC is to have programmable station stops some automatic sound triggers, and the ability to throw turnouts from the hand piece.

So my question really is just about how to make the thing work. But Bruce and John both made an excellent point that just now sunk in what they were trying to say. If i extend the “bridge block” further in either direction then if the bridge is out then signal is lost to that block and trains have no choice but to stop and not crash on the floor. Its a fail safe. I was thinking the ability of me to stop it, I wasn’t thinking at it from the standpoint of a fail safe stop. Easy enough to do for sure. Rail gaps a few feet in either direction of the bridge and a plug at each end of the bridge and I would have a continuous block at that point.

Just for my own clarification, with the bridge out, other section of the track would still operate right? As long as their is no dead short? I am new to DCC for sure and only have begun to wrap my mind around it. But For things like reversing loops and my bridge there will be physical separation in these blocks right? As in gaped rails. Each block will be fed by feeders so even if one section is not working the other sections are right? I realize a short is different and shuts the system down but that’s a different problem than missing rails, correct?

Yes, all track sections should operate as long as they are powered thru the rails and all rails are wired same rail to same rail through out the layout. No need to worry about reversing loops, yes they would be isolated by rail insulators, but todays electronic reversing units can make this all automatic and you don’t have to throw any switches to reverse polarities, another big advantage of DCC. Only other track that you might want to isolate would be storage tracks for engines, or other power units. In most cases your entire layout can get buy with all rails not having any rail isolated sections, but this would probably not be recommended for larger layout because if you have a electrical problem it’s easier to locate the problem if it is sectioned off. All being said, the DCC is a pretty simple system and after you change over to it, you will wonder why I took so long to do so. Keep asking question, you are learning everyday about DCC, I started just like you.

trainman

#10

Devon Sinsley said:

While I understand that DCC “can” do a tremendous amount I am likely never going to realize even close to its full potential. I can see it if you had an HO or N empire and were running lots of trains at once and wanted operating signals and such. For me this will be a very minimal layout running one or two locomotives at any one time. Minimal switching. The only reason I even want to go DCC as opposed to just straight DC is to have programmable station stops some automatic sound triggers, and the ability to throw turnouts from the hand piece.

Don’t be too sure. (https://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-foot-in-mouth.gif)I never did anything with DCC (OK, I did do Airwire, but that’s NOT really the same), but you just may surprise yourself when you want to do something a bit different and suddenly find out that DCC gives you that ability. While it’s really cool for the electronics buffs, I suspect that you’ll find it interesting enough to keep exploring the options.

#11

John Lenheiser said:

Yes, all track sections should operate as long as they are powered thru the rails and all rails are wired same rail to same rail through out the layout. No need to worry about reversing loops, yes they would be isolated by rail insulators, but todays electronic reversing units can make this all automatic and you don’t have to throw any switches to reverse polarities, another big advantage of DCC. Only other track that you might want to isolate would be storage tracks for engines, or other power units. In most cases your entire layout can get buy with all rails not having any rail isolated sections, but this would probably not be recommended for larger layout because if you have a electrical problem it’s easier to locate the problem if it is sectioned off. All being said, the DCC is a pretty simple system and after you change over to it, you will wonder why I took so long to do so. Keep asking question, you are learning everyday about DCC, I started just like you.

trainman

You confirmed for me pretty much what I already understood or at least think I understand. I know that it really is fairly simple especially on a simple layout like I am wanting to run. Just wasn’t all that sure how to deal with a removable bridge but now I do.

#12

Bruce Chandler said:

Devon Sinsley said:

While I understand that DCC “can” do a tremendous amount I am likely never going to realize even close to its full potential. I can see it if you had an HO or N empire and were running lots of trains at once and wanted operating signals and such. For me this will be a very minimal layout running one or two locomotives at any one time. Minimal switching. The only reason I even want to go DCC as opposed to just straight DC is to have programmable station stops some automatic sound triggers, and the ability to throw turnouts from the hand piece.

Don’t be too sure. (https://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-foot-in-mouth.gif)I never did anything with DCC (OK, I did do Airwire, but that’s NOT really the same), but you just may surprise yourself when you want to do something a bit different and suddenly find out that DCC gives you that ability. While it’s really cool for the electronics buffs, I suspect that you’ll find it interesting enough to keep exploring the options.

I have no doubt. I have never been one to be satisfied so I am sure what you are speaking is truth. And it is a good reason when starting a new layout like I am to go that route.