Large Scale Central

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General Discussion
#41

Hand laying is not for everyone, I started with it 15 years ago and here is my take on a few things. I went with pressure treated wood for ties. My early experiments found that steel spikes would not only rust but would completely disappear in a couple of years so I had to use stainless steel spikes. Steel spikes would still “pop” on occasion, I have a photo somewhere showing some that did. I’m convinced that the grain orientation has some influence on this as I have had some that had never “popped”.

Due to the variable hardness of PT wood I found predrilling holes for spikes was a must and it is important that the holes be deeper than the length of the spike or the constant expansion and contraction of the wood will work on the point of the spike to push it out. And yes even the PT ties don’t last for ever, I’ve had to replace some after 10 years of service which I don’t think is all that bad. Most likely they came from the heart wood which gets the least amount of the chemical treatment during processing.

Two seasons ago I replaced a 15 year old section with ties milled from Trex. In the time since, through two Ohio winters and hot humid summers I have not had a single spike “pop”. In the future I will be using these for any replacement work and new construction. They seem to take stain well and blend right in with the other ties once they have weathered.

All of that said it’s my plan to finish most of the layout with plastic ties as there never seems to be enough time and at my current rate of progress I won’t live long enough to see it finished. I still plan to spike all of switches and any other special track work like dual gauge sections.

While I suspect many would see hand spiking as a drudge but I find it goes quick enough and it doesn’t require an extreme amount of attention, I find I can let my mind drift to other things and it makes spiking go quickly. I hand spiked in HO and found in large scale it’s so much easier.

While I intend to switch to plastic ties I have never really liked the looks of them and I’ve always considered track work to be part of the model. No matter how detailed your equipment is to me the effect is spoiled if you are running on toy like track. Just my 2 cents worth.

#42

Gary I’m with you. I can’t wait to hand lay my track when I move. Plastic ties is the one thing that If one thing bugged me about my layout, it would be the plastic ties I currently have.

#43

Gary, I agree with you; not for everybody, but not a drudge either. While most of my track is flex on plastic ties, all of my bridges and trestles are hand spiked rail. Most of my switches as well. I have had a LOT of the spikes pop out over the years, and it’s been a yearly chore to punch them back in. This year I replaced all of my single spikes with 2 spikes per rail, using the Spiker, as some of the switches I did last year with the spiker did not have ANY spikes pop.

Shawn,

I advise you NOT to wait to start hand-laying track. At least do a small section and leave it outside for awhile; especially with winter coming up. Sure, it won’t be 5 years of exposure, but I think you will still learn something. Again, I sure recommend that Spiker tool. And, it is good practice!

#44

My first intention with my current railroad was to hand-lay all the track. Then reality set in (i.e, “you’ve got no track in the ground and a baby due in 6 months.” Yeah–it’s amazing what happens to good intentions when your timeline for completion is accelerated “significantly.”

If I were to do it today, I’d probably go back to the system my dad and I used when building his railroad–ties attached to an aluminum spline, then use staples from below to hold the rail in place. It’s a bit more tedious to build each section, but after 30+ years, that track is holding up very well. (Too bad you can’t get creosote anymore…)

But I think I’ll save that for my next railroad. In the ground with a fresh layer of ballast, combined with dust and the sun weathering the ties a bit, the plastic stuff actually looks pretty good. (That, or I’m just getting used to it.) I’ve got a bucket of steam engine “grunge” I’m going to dribble on my ties once I get a fresh coating of ballast on. The plastic ties on the live steam track at the Colorado RR Museum are coated with oil, dirt, and other stuff, and they look great!

Later,

K

#45

Kevin Strong said: Too bad you can’t get creosote anymore…

I’ve got a gallon can in my shed, left here by the previous owner. Shall I ship it to you? The HazMat fee will probably force you into bankruptcy ;]

#46

Experience:

Llagas tried Creosote many years ago when a customer demanded it (their switch ties back then were redwood).
Creosote will not hold spikes.
It works as a lubricant, and they had to scrap all the ties and go back to straight redwood. I know…I have all the ties here in tie piles in maintenance areas.

So…use it if you want, but be prepared to do it all over again.

The new Llagas stuff (oh, 12 years or more?) is cast nylon ties, pre-drilled smaller than the spike, spikes driven in (blackened stainless) and mandrel bent over on the bottom. They never, as in ever, come loose.

TREX doesn’t like to be cut small enough for ties, usually. SwitchCrafters found that out…they split when spiked. They ended up using a similar product called Veranda. Quoting from GR:
"The ties are made of “Veranda”, a millennium-wood product that is not brittle like some plastic composites. "

I’ve known a lot of folks who tried hand spiking. The rule of thumb, or so it seems, is 200-300 max total trackage can be maintained if you’re retired.

Careful of wood, as it expands and contracts in weather, changing gauge.
Old 0 scaler tried that many years ago, next spring it was unusable and all came out, never to be relaid.

Me?

I want to run trains, not maintain track.

But, hey, with 1500 feet of track, I couldn’t afford to hand spike it in the first place.

TOC

#47

I have to say I’m not impressed with the Veranda product. It doesn’t hold spikes either. I am in the process of converting all the ties from my Switchcrafters switch with Redwood.

#48

I love to handlay…but IU too have the problem with spikes working out…since mostly my turnouts are the handlaid bits currently this has been a pain…this year I experimented with applying CA to them as I drove them back in, and seem to have posititve results thus far…some that did not get CA have worked back out already, and those that did are still tight as TOC wallet…

I was decommissioning some some older track I did that has been outside for some 10 plus years where I used eustucheaon pins for spikes…18x1/4 and it was solid as a rock…really required some effort and a pair of lineman’s pliers for me to recover the rail from those sections. And then I disciovered I couldd use eustcheaon pins in the Spiker as welll!!! I’m going back to handlaying for the industrial sidings and after I use up my current supply of tie strips and using the eustucheaon pins for spikes…cheaper, look just as good once they rust a bit, and I can get them at ANY hardware store (a bonus since I work in a warehouse for a hardware distributer)…

#49

Jake Smith said:

I have to say I’m not impressed with the Veranda product. It doesn’t hold spikes either. I am in the process of converting all the ties from my Switchcrafters switch with Redwood.

Odd. I have one SwitchCrafters RH switch, 250 Aluminium, of all the things, spikes coming loose has never been an issue, and it’s been out on the line for six years this December.
Not arguing, just haven’t had any issues with spikes.

Now, the pins from the points to the throwbars is another story entirely.

TOC

#50

Bart “Mr. Worldwide” Salmons said:

I love to handlay…

Hopefully not with a bag of Cheeto’s cause we would know!

#51

“Creosote will not hold spikes.”
Not an issue for me, since I’d be using staples from underneath.

(http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/eastbroadtop/WoodlandRY/WoolandTrackDrawing.jpg)

Only with code 250 brass rail, I’d use 3/64" brass or soft copper wire instead of 1/16" aluminum. You’d be surprised how many staples you can bend during a few hours in front of the television. (I know dad was… he paid my sister and I a penny per staple!)

I’d also probably use a different adhesive to stick the ties to the aluminum spline instead of the fiberglass cloth/resin we used. Not that there was anything wrong with it, but if you keep the bottom of the spline free from anything draped around it, you can run the spline through a modified railbender to pre-bend the spline prior to putting it in the ground.

On the subject of wood preservatives, when we built the trestle on dad’s railroad, creosote had since been outlawed. We used a blend of Thompson’s and dark walnut stain, and soaked each bent for a day. Those bents have been in for 20+ years. A few of them–where they were in contact with the ground–rotted at the base, but beyond that they’ve held up well. Since ties are in contact with the ground, I don’t know how long they’d last in that environment.

Later,

K

#52

Kevin Strong said:

“Creosote will not hold spikes.”
Not an issue for me, since I’d be using staples from underneath.

(http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/eastbroadtop/WoodlandRY/WoolandTrackDrawing.jpg)

Only with code 250 brass rail, I’d use 3/64" brass or soft copper wire instead of 1/16" aluminum. You’d be surprised how many staples you can bend during a few hours in front of the television. (I know dad was… he paid my sister and I a penny per staple!)

I’d also probably use a different adhesive to stick the ties to the aluminum spline instead of the fiberglass cloth/resin we used. Not that there was anything wrong with it, but if you keep the bottom of the spline free from anything draped around it, you can run the spline through a modified railbender to pre-bend the spline prior to putting it in the ground.

On the subject of wood preservatives, when we built the trestle on dad’s railroad, creosote had since been outlawed. We used a blend of Thompson’s and dark walnut stain, and soaked each bent for a day. Those bents have been in for 20+ years. A few of them–where they were in contact with the ground–rotted at the base, but beyond that they’ve held up well. Since ties are in contact with the ground, I don’t know how long they’d last in that environment.

Later,

K

Ya know, reading this…inserting and bending staples in front of the TV set…well, with creosoted ties, I would bet you’d be banished to the back corner of the lot by SWMBO in short order…

#53

I’m a fan if 1:24 and recently sold out my roster of 1:29 & 1:20.3 cars & locomotives, leaving me with 1:24 & 1:22.5 HLW, LGB, Delton, B-mann, etc. I’d love to see someone produce Tinplate in 1:24 scale to run on gauge 1 track.

I do have some extra .332 brass 4’dia. curves that I plan on relaying into O gauge track to run my clockwork trains on outdoors after we have relocated and time comes to build new layouts. I have some Cypress planks that I’ll mill down for cross ties.

My inspiration: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWrm_7lcMEc

The NewBlight Disney set that I purchased a while back will donate the locomotive, to be refitted with a Marx Mechanical drive and a Lionel pilot for outdoor running. Not sure what it would be called, G/O mechanical? What ever it would be called, it’ll be an interesting bash.

Dave

#54

“…inserting and bending staples in front of the TV set…well, with creosoted ties, I would bet you’d be banished to the back corner of the lot by SWMBO in short order…”

The splines of track were assembled and staples inserted into the ties prior to the entire 6’ long assembly being left in a trough full of creosote for a week for treatment. They were then removed from the trough and let to dry prior to being installed on the railroad. Once sufficient lengths of spline roadbed were in place on the railroad, the rail was set between the staples and the staples cinched over with a pair of pliers.

Later,

K

#55

Curmudgeon mcneely said:

Jake Smith said:

I have to say I’m not impressed with the Veranda product. It doesn’t hold spikes either. I am in the process of converting all the ties from my Switchcrafters switch with Redwood.

Odd. I have one SwitchCrafters RH switch, 250 Aluminium, of all the things, spikes coming loose has never been an issue, and it’s been out on the line for six years this December.
Not arguing, just haven’t had any issues with spikes.

Now, the pins from the points to the throwbars is another story entirely.

TOC

The switch in question was a curved switch with stainless steel rail. The spikes started raising within a few months. I was used to pushing them back down, but I decided this year I was going to replace the ties with redwood. I’m not complaining about Switchcrafters product, I would buy their stuff again if I needed it.

As far as my other switches I have Sunset Valley and they nail the spike through the tie and bend it over on the bottom side. There are no problems with the spikes on those switches.

#56

Kevin,

I really like the idea of nailing the staple through the bottom. I cant see any way you would have a problem with the “spikes” coming out.

#57

We had a jigs made for cutting the ties to length, drilling the holes, and cutting the slot on the underside to fit over the spline. It was more labor-intensive on the front end (though in fairness, every time I hand-spike rail, I pre-drill those holes as well), but on the other hand, virtually zero track maintenance in over 30 years beyond ballasting and repairing damage from fallen tree branches. There are some places, now, that have to be realigned due to tree roots growing and pushing things around here and there, but overall it’s been a very sturdy technique.

Contrast that to the rest of the railroad when we started using commercial plastic ties; it’s a lot less work on the front end, but periodic track adjustments to get rid of twists, bumps, and humps are routine. Like anything in this hobby, pick your poison.

Later,

K