Large Scale Central

Push the 1:24 scale reset button to save largescale

Hi Guys:

The LGB brothers understood the vast majority of folks have limited space to run a model train. Hence the R1 track radius which all LGB equipment could run on.

Then came along 1:22.5 American prototype narrow gauge locos and cars. When introduced by LGB the North Americans were very satisfied with. Then folks noticed the track gauge error and eventually 1:20.3 was introduced to satisfy that problem. No LGB R1 indoor locos at 1:20.3 scale.

Aristo Craft recently stated on their forum that their 1:29 sales plummeted but yet their 1:48 sales continued on.

The only possible salvation for largescale is to hit the 1:24 scale reset button.

New narrow gauge trackage at 1:24 scale width with aluminum rail and on board battery which can be recharged as the loco runs along the aluminum rail with intermittent electrical conductivity.

Aluminum rail will minimise the cost of track. On board battery solves the aluminum rail conductivity problem.

1:24 scale narrow gauge will run all of the desired narrow gauge locos at the required tight radius for indoor layouts and larger radius for outdoor layouts.

1:24 scale properly gauge track not compatible with the existing Gauge One market?

Does it matter?

Gauge One is finished in the North American market place.

Gauge One has had its day in the North American market place. An insufficient number of hobbyists have the required back yard for 1:20.3 Gauge One train layouts. Hence the continued strong sales of O Gauge trains for basement layouts.

1:24 scale locos can run on LGB R1 radius and are therefore suitable for basement layouts, apartment dweller layouts and outdoor layouts thereby providing the manufacturers with a far greater customer base than 1:20.3 scale.

Folks, what is your opinion?

Norman

Confused…

Gauge 1 normally means 1:32 scale to me, not mentioned in your post.

1:24 would have been great to buildings and vehicles.

But the “correct” gauge was too far from 45mm track it seems.

1:22 seemed to be an ok compromise, but 1:20.32 allows perfectly scaled locos on the “right” track.

One issue with your assumption abut LGB… European houses are typically much smaller than here in the US, so tighter curves were necessary. I see this in other scales, like the Z scale I model in… building layouts in briefcases.

Regards, Greg

Hi Greg:

I am talking about moving away from gauge one track completely using the correctly gauge track as in 1/24 of three feet zero inches track gauge.

This would be a complete move away from gauge one track and starting completely over with a new product line.

At least there are existing 1/24 locos and rolling stock molds at USA TRAINS, Hartland and Aristo Craft to start this new product line.

I am not considering the existing gauge one customers ( us folks ) as we really are not relevant as we are in general maxed out and no longer buying in sufficient product quantities.

A completely new 1/24 scale product and new product customer base is required to regenerate largescale.

Norman

The nominal scale for LGB was (is) 1:22.5 for many, many years. 45mm is pretty exact for 1000mm gauge in 1:22.5, a lot of the European narrow gauge railways run on one meter track.

How accurately LGB followed the 1:22.5 credo over the years is another question.

Using 1:24 on 45mm would be perfect for the Newfie bullet and a few other railways, but …

Yeah. Right.
They can’t sell what they have, any of them, so suddenly in this economy we’re all going to throw it all out and lay new track with new trains?
Fat chance.

If I had it all to do over, I’d probably do what I intended and do 0 gauge outdoors.

I’ve been in 0 3 and 2 rail for…61 years. I recall 17/64ths scale, the “fix” for the 0 gauge problem (do the math…1.25" gauge in 1:48).
The nmra didn’t like two scales on one gauge (good Lord, what do we have now?) so it no longer met “standards” and disappeared.

30, 40 years later we got PROTO48, roughly inch and an eight gauge, same carbodies. Permanently and irrevocably split the hobby.
Can’t run one on the other.

Don’t even suggest it.
It would kill us off completely.

TOC

1 1/2" gauge track. You’d have to re-truck the existing 1/24 products as well.
The 1/24 locos (Aristo/Delton) would prolly be too hard to re guage.

But is a good idea.

I model in 1/24th, and love it. I think it’s a great scale with several advantages. However…

I think that 1/24th scale, with correctly gauged track, would have been the way to go 25-30 years ago when Large Scale was just getting started over here. But unfortunately “that ship has sailed”. It’s far too late now, and makes even less sense under the current economic conditions.

The two big arguments against correctly gauged, 1/24th scale track and equipment were:

  1. Too many people already have 45mm gauge track, and they aren’t going to replace it with “proper” track in a different scale.

  2. It’s too expensive to create a new track gauge and scale, when having to compete against the existing stuff.

There was at least a grain of truth to those arguments decades ago. Now they are more true than ever. There are far more people now who already have large investments in 45mm gauge layouts, and aren’t likely to tear it out and replace it with something that is correct in a smaller scale. (Not to mention replacing all their “wrong” scale equipment.)

And with the economy still stinking like roadkill, no manufacturer could risk putting a mountain of cash into an unproven scale/gauge combination. The manufacturers are barely hanging on as it is, selling to an existing market.

The large scale hobby isn’t suffering because the trains are the wrong scale. It’s suffering because the economy went down the toilet in 2008 and is still struggling to climb back up out of the sewer pipe. People can’t afford hobbies, especially expensive ones like large scale trains. That, plus the fact that fewer people these days are even interested in any kind of hobby – they’re all too busy twittering and facebooking and all that other rot.

Hi Guys:

TOC, that is what Lewis Polk thought was the future of outdoor layouts. Use O gauge track.

Ray, I think that it is more than the fact that the economy has not fully recovered. It is the insane increasing price of gasoline. Here in Canada, Postal rates have skyrocketed. A 250.00 Bachmann Mogul, being given away through TrainWorld, is no longer a super deal as the postage through Canada Post is around 150.00 . Increasing gasoline pricing has also resulted in very high price increases at the grocery store.

The new Bachmann loco pricing has meant zero purchases from me. I think that train mfg. will need to be moved, possibly to Vietnam. I believe that the present increased China price structure will mean the end of largescale.

My thought is that 1:24 scale would increase the available customer base as 1:24 scale permits both indoor and outdoor layouts for both apartment dwellers and home owners.

Norman

Ya know. good old Lewis bamboozed all the folks to think 1:29 on #1 gauge track was “just right”, so why not 1:24 on #1 gauge track?
I thought you folks didn’t care?

Hi TOC:

Personally, I thought 1:24 scale on gauge one track was just fine ( yes I know the track gauge error ) .

Unfortunately, the majority of the market place did not agree with me and hence no new 1:24 scale product development. Just the original Delton product and a few HLW products.

1:24 scale meant reasonable tight curves possible for indoor layouts

Norman

Except the new partial container has…1:24 2-8-0’s in it.

I have a whole bunch of 1:24 stuff. Boxcars, outside dimensions, same as 1:22.5…floor are higher, though.
Mine is all Delton…still have 15-20 cars and cabeese in the boxes, waiting for the need…

What the heck was wrong with 1/22.5? so the track was a fraction of an inch out of scale, big deal… I mean that really BIG WHOOPING DEAL!

Since 1/20.3 came out we have seen the hobby rift between narrow gauge and standard, and an almost balkanization of narrow gauge between the 1/20 folk and everyone else. Not just that but the size and clearances required for this massive stock meant some folks had to rebuild their layouts several times to accommodate the stuff. Seriously, the first time I saw a Bmann K hooked up to a string of Accucraft J&S coaches I had to do a double take cause I seriously thought it was close to Ride-On sizes

Also anyone notice sales also dropped, because the marketing was now aiming at a ever smaller niche group and once they have one or two thats all they are going to buy, so the number produced gets reduced and they now have to be way more expensive to cover production so less people can now afford the stuff, so less stuff gets produced because no one will fork over $1300 for a plastic Forney when a few more months savings will get a brass live steam one. Anyone else see a problem with this formula?

My layouts indoor and portable use 1/22 to 1/24 equipment, why? Because its MANAGEABLE. Rigid adherence to prototyping 1/20 would mean much larger EVERYTHING and possibly eliminate ANY possibility to any kind of smaller limited area layouts.

I just came from the National Narrow Gauge convention but by far the most common gauge there was On30, and most of the stuff running on it was modelled on 3 foot prototypes, 3 footers running on 30 inch track?

What have they figured out that we havent???

You say “Gauge 1 is finished in the North American marketplace,” if I’m reading your thoughts correctly, that’s based on the notion that you need lots of space for 1:20.3, etc.

That doesn’t hold water for me. You’re equating 1:20.3 modeling with large locos and equipment, which isn’t the case any more than you can equate standard gauge railroading with 4-unit diesel consists and 100-car coal drags. It may be one possible aspect of modeling, but it’s not the only thing to model. Absolutely, you need a fair amount of space to run a K-27 with 30 cars in tow. You need that space (and more) to run “mainline” standard gauge stuff. On the other hand, you can easily do both standard and narrow gauge modeling–and do it well–in a small amount of space.

My back yard is all of 35’ x 60’ (nominally,) and I’ve fit 300’ of track in that space, while keeping the majority of it open so the kids have plenty of room to play. The feature railroad in this month’s GR is all of 30’ x 40’–about 2/3s the space I have, and–likewise–has a large grassy area in the middle of the space. You simply don’t need a lot of space. He’s running fairly modern standard gauge trains on that, and from the photos, doing a very good job of it! You do have to tailor your trains to the space available. A K-27 with 30 cars in tow would be hard-pressed to fit around my lower reverse loop, and would simply overwhelm the space I have. My trains are usually around 6 - 8 cars long with the largest loco I have on the active roster being a B’mann outside-frame 2-8-0.

LGB’s still out there. Piko’s still out there. Bachmann’s 1:22 stuff is still out there. Hartland, etc… all these “legacy” products that are small and can handle the small curves are still being made. The manufacturers, thus, have a good handle on how they’re selling. Manufacturers like Bachmann and Aristo can gauge those sales vs. their other product lines for an even clearer picture of the market.

I think it’s a very, very small percentage of the market who today would do 1:24 on 1.5" gauge track. The reality is that most large scalers in the US don’t care that the scale/gauge relationship may be wrong. It’s just not important to them. Your market, then, would be those narrow gauge modelers for whom a proper scale/gauge relationship is paramount. Of that already small market, you have to subtract those modelers who are invested in 1:20.3. Your only “real” market is those modelers who are particular about scale/gauge and are VERY spatially challenged, and want to run models of large narrow gauge prototypes such as Ks, 50-ton Shays, etc. (Because there are a BUNCH of “1:22.5” locos from LGB and Bachmann that actually scale out very well in 1:20.3 compared to various prototypes, so you can do 1:20.3 with LGB equipment on R1 curves.)

Personally, if I had $1 million to invest in the hobby for narrow gauge, I’d be investing in small 1:20.3 locos like 18-ton Shays, Class A Climaxes, or small 2-6-0s like the C&S or W&W moguls, and for rolling stock, 25’ freight cars and some short passenger coaches. The prototypes are out there; these needn’t be freelance models. But they’d be small enough to fit around (at least) a 3’ radius curve, and–more importantly–look halfway decent doing so. They’d also be small enough to blend in well with the existing 1:22 and 1:24 stuff, so folks could buy it and not feel like it dwarfs their rolling stock as some of the larger 1:20 stuff does. As I see it, there’s no need to “invent” a new scale/track gauge when we’re not using the one we have to its full potential.

Later,

K

Ray Dunakin has already said much of what I also feel and concur with so I won’t repeat it.

One thing that many on this site don’t seem to want to recognize though is that while there are many fine modelers here for both narrow and standard gauges and vintage and modern prototypes most people using 45mm gauge could care less and the vast majority don’t frequent sites like this.

The mainstream of “G” gaugers and club members care only about running trains around loops of track mostly as an adjunct to the garden and to entertain the grandkids. There is absolutely nithing wrong in this but it’s a fact of life that needs to be put into the equation. It is more important tp most of them to be able to run trains on each other’s layouts regardless of scale than to concern themselves with “correct” scale/gauge issues. Of course they like the trains to look good and at least reasonably realistic but Thomas the Tank shares honors with most everything else.

Without these people there would be no “G” hobby as we know it because there simply aren’t enough serious RR hobbyists to support very much commercially by themselves. There are precious few even with everyone counted.

Conversely the much maligned rivet counters have agitated continuously for more accurate models and over the years have been responsible for most of the advances in realism in the same way as the “mechanics” have brought about generally better quality albeit with much kicking and screaming from some manufacturers. All have benefited from their efforts.

The hobby won’t be saved by sacrificing big for small or realism for cheap. Both have a place and serve a need. I would have liked nothing better than for the largescale hobby to have settled on 1/24th scale 3 foot with proper gauge track but as Ray says above I have all my track down, all my lokies and rolling stock gauged for 45mm gauge and I’m not very likely to change now.

Those who promote O scale for outdoors have a very valid argument also. First off it has been used outdoors since the 1920s and 1930s when only track power was available. When I first started in battery power it was a squeeze the fit batteries and electronics in most engines. Now with the advances in battery technology just about any O scale engine could be fitted with batteries, So just about anything you can do in largescale can be accomplished with O with a bit of effort.

In conclusion while I do love 1/24th scale there are just too many other options to choose from now to make introducing a new gauge in largescale economical and the people that would buy are just too few.

Dear All,

I’m neither trying to promote or discourage 1.5" gauge track.

I thought running the scale numbers might be helpful to the discussion:

56.5" / 1.5" = 1:37.67 scale

1:29 mismatch (“Wow” factor) 51.2" / 1.5" = 1:34.14

42" / 1.5" = 1:28

39.37" / 1.5" = 1:26.25

36" / 1.5" = 1:24

On30 mismatch 31.14" / 1.5" = 1:20.76

30" / 1.5" = 1:20

24" / 1.5" = 1:16

15" / 1.5" = 1:10

I may have missed a “Thomas” scale, or perhaps an LGB “rubber” scale or two…

I am not sure how Bachmann massages the scales (in each of the 3 dimensions) and gauges of the On30 models of 36" and 24" gauge prototypes.

Hope this helps.

Sincerely,

Joe Satnik

Edit: Add P.S. When we are thinking of scaling up/down a scale/gauge “mismatch”, it means that a (mismatched) “model” has become our “prototype”.

Ooooooh O scale outdoors…an N&W Y6b with a 60 car coal drag…the mind boggles…

I think if I had to start over, I would seriously consider “O” outdoors.
The large selection of rolling stock and accessories would be nice.
I think the major stumbling point in my case would be the ties.
I wouldn’t want to hand lay the track, and I’m guessing the commercial track ties wouldn’t hold up outdoors.
Ralph

Ralph Berg said:

I think if I had to start over, I would seriously consider “O” outdoors.
The large selection of rolling stock and accessories would be nice.
I think the major stumbling point in my case would be the ties.
I wouldn’t want to hand lay the track, and I’m guessing the commercial track ties wouldn’t hold up outdoors.
Ralph

Ralph I think you can get o gauge track for outdoors. They do it over in the UK with the 16mm. If I were to start over I would have considered the 16mm scale. It looks like a fun scale with live steam.

Personally I think LGB trains are the perfect size but then again I’m not overly concerned with the proper scales and gauges and instead I just run what I looks good to me.
I like bachamnn, LGB and USAT, they all seem to play well together but not so MTH in the 1/32 size.

I think introducing new track would be a costly mistake fro any manufacturer at this point. Most guys have alot of money tied up in track and the newbies often get going with used track they can buy at a deal. I know if I had to buy all new stuff I couldn’t afford this hobby.
Think 8 tracks to cassette tapes to DVD’s then they tried the mini cd’s, DVD’s and now blueray. A guy could go broke trying to keep up!
I do think what would be good for the hobby if the manufacturers were to offer decent battery powered trains since so many guys are heading that way in the aftermarket.

Aristocraft builds battery friendly locomotives and has done this for a considerable time. If you are willing to have your battery in a trailing car like some of us, you don’t even have to open up the engine. Just throw one switch and you are set.

Ed