Large Scale Central

Polks

I got the email this morning as well am was sorry to see that Polk’s will be now more at the end of the year. It is sad to see so many large scale suppliers fall by the wayside these past few years. The blame for this I put squarely on the shoulders of our federal government and it inability to get its house in order and get the budget under control to get the economy moving in the right direction again. Locally I have seen the same thing, with Hobby shop after Hobby shop having to shut its doors due to lack of business, because the consumer has less disposable funds to spend on hobby items. We have had 4 shops close here in the past year and the only one now that carries Large scale in any amount and is full service is 30 miles away in a small town.

I know this news will come as a big blow to my brother who is a staunch Aristocraft fan and only uses their products. Over the past couple of years I have seen him search the garden Railway magazine and internet to find suppliers of AC products only to have them fall by the wayside one after the other, like Ridge Road Station and St Aubins, and the finally have to purchase straight from Polks. I guess its a good thing he has been buying track and turnouts in quantity for the last couple of years, so he should be Ok there. As much as he hates to use Ebay, at least he will be able to get rolling stock there all be it at higher prices, which I predict will soar like LGB did after they closed doors.

I used the Train Engineer control for a number of years and still have a couple receivers and transmitters, but I have been switching over to the Rail Boss system, so most likely I will give my brother my AC Train Engineer equipment so he can use it or keep it as backups for his equipment should the stop working.

With the closing of Polks, I see another dark cloud over our Large Scale hobby, but hopefully the sun will shine again in the future and be much brighter. As long as I am able to get aluminum rail I will be ok, as I lay my own track and scratch build just about everything else. Could it be that the hobby might be heading back to its roots where the modeler had to make most of his stuff from scratch. Something to ponder.

Again it is a sad day for the hobby. Polks, will be missed.

DS

Steve Featherkile said:

Mark, that was over the top, and definitely not called for.

No Steve I wasn’t, actually that was me trying to be polite.

Attack Aristocraft or their products all you want but when you start insulting fellow forum members even with petty names like Kool aid Drinkers is not called for.

Respect gets respect

What he resorts to is nothing more then childish bullying and quite frankly I’m sick of it, I know others are also with people leaving this forum (Mark IV comes to mind) because of this persistant negativity towards forum members that don’t conform to the rightenous of people like Curmy.

Mark Dash said:

Steve Featherkile said:

Mark, that was over the top, and definitely not called for.

No Steve I wasn’t, actually that was me trying to be polite.

Attack Aristocraft or their products all you want but when you start insulting fellow forum members even with petty names like Kool aid Drinkers is not called for.

Respect gets respect

What he resorts to is nothing more then childish bullying and quite frankly I’m sick of it, I know others are also with people leaving this forum (Mark IV comes to mind) because of this persistant negativity towards forum members that don’t conform to the rightenous of people like Curmy.

What else would you call it? Kool Aid Drinkers is mild. Very mild.
Blinders…fingers in ears…humming loudly…believing everything The Great One says, including that ridiculous “interview”.
Nobody wanted them to go away…heck, for entertainment value only we’d want them around.
PolkSpeak generated a whole lot of comments everywhere.
You’re still trying to get the thread locked, after the Fat Lady has already sung her song.
Unbelievable.
Who is bullying? Want me to quote the “bullying” comments?
Truth is truth…and withing the constraints of the legal system, some of us tried (in vain) to let you know what was coming.
And the best you can do is this?
If that’s the attitude of the majority of Aristo buyers, well, no wonder we are where we are today.
Lots of luck with Navin covering your Aristo repairs through 2014.
TOC

Shouldnt be much a surprise to anyone, hell they had a tiny booth that was mostly unmanned at the convention in June.

Yep it’s a shame it came down to the closing. The product will be missed. Maybe some one will come to the rescue.

Boy some folks just can’t leave a dead dog lie. Later RJD

While we are all predicting the future, go back over a week ago and I stated that Bachmann would release the ex-Aristo 1/29 scale line up. It may or may not be under the Bachmann banner, but Kader will most definately be pulling the commercial strings.

This is part of my ‘prediction’ dated 20th September, 2013 in the thread on no Aristo ads in GR magazine.

Quote: “Bachmann did not move into a shrinking 1/29 market by chance. This is a calculated business decision. Combine the AC inventory and you have a strong standard gauge line up in the market with the economies of scale of production plus financial backing that Kader can provide. I think that AC will shrink to the ‘O’ scale market and leave largescale totally apart from the Revo product line.”

OK, the ‘O’ scale bit may be in the future but I predict some one related to the manufacturer will take up the reins of the ‘O’ scale brand and pursue that end. I do not call it ‘intuition’ like some deniers, but base my thoughts on what is happening now and simple common sense.

Now to the fall of the almighty. Well, it was guessed that the ‘haters’ were responsible for ALL Aristo’s problems, but guess what it now is not just the haters but apparently the government as well. Gee, I never guessed the federal governemnt hated Aristo as some of us supposedly do.

At what point do Aristo take responsibility for their own failure. It is not just down to the supposed haters and federal government policy. The deniers are already fabricating history, rewriting it so that the almighty one has no blood on his hands. A good general falls on his sword arfter a defeat in battle.

No amount of supposed ‘hatred’ did diddly squat to anyone’s reputation in the marketplace. The litany of failures is well known and documented if you care to look or have that inate ability to not just read but understood what is written. Rose coloured glasses, blinders or Kool-aide, the effect is the same, you are unable to see or face reality.

We have seen this all before with the infamous ‘ventilators’. They will pursue their cause until the inevitable demise is blatant in their faces and then suprise, suprise, the same ‘champions’ who campaigned under the loyal band of Aristo-Nauts, will be seen supporting another manufacturer facing the financial chop. Like a pack of greenies, they will scour the world looking for a cause to support not wanting to face the reality of their past decision making. While there is a cause to be championed there is hope that they will redeem themselves. It is just a hobby afterall!!!

I truly hope that Lewis now can enjoy his well earned retirement and the sun (and mosquitoes) in Florida.

Further to above, wondering who actually owned the patent to the ‘prime-mover’ gearboxes, I attempted to access the Aristo website, Apparently, some one has pulled the plug on the site. Is it December 31st already?

Lewis many years ago stated on the Aristo technical pages on their website that the prime mover gearboxes were ‘patented’. I am now thinking that it was Sanda Kan who held the patent rather than Aristo itself (the designer I believe was Chinese and no doubt an employee of Sanda Kan). If it is Sanda Kan holding the patents (plus apparently the tooling), then full steam ahead out of China with, you guessed it, even higher prices. Do not think Aristo under the Kader banner will be cheap. Look to the way Bachmann prices have spiralled. Largescale used to be affordable.

As I predicted over a week ago (I realy hate it when my predictions ring true), last one out turn the light off. Intuition, no, simple common sense plus no blinders or the effects of Kool-aide to confuse my thinking.

Edit: That is weird. when I first tried I got an abort message that the site could not be connected. I just tried again and got onto the site. They say fact is stranger than fiction.

This just gets curiouser and curiouser. This forum will continue indefinitely, says Lewis.

For those who remember the past, I can see a future in the hobby for Scott Polk. You guessed it, a business consultant. It worked for Johannes and the lamentably late Ralf Richter. I see Scott as the new head of a reformed RMT ‘O’ scale brand. Watch this space. Navin ‘got’ the Crest brand and Scott will get the RMT name. Of cause the strings will still be pulled all the way from Florida, After 80 plus years, Lewis with his unique personality is not going down without a fight. With all his ‘faults’ one still has to admire his dedication to the hobby, plus making a few dollars on the way.

On the Aristo Forum, Tom Ruby on the demise of Aristo said it all, the bear is unmasked. TATE revealed his true identity. Apparently that is bigger news than Aristo closing its doors.

Craig Townsend said:

I guess the ‘faithful’ couldn’t see the handwriting on the wall.

I don’t know what “faithful” you’re referring to, but it was obvious that the company was struggling, so this sad news is no surprise.

R.J. DeBerg said:

Yep it’s a shame it came down to the closing. The product will be missed. Maybe some one will come to the rescue.

Boy some folks just can’t leave a dead dog lie. Later RJD

RJ,
for the dog to die, you have to first admit that it is DEAD. Alas, some cannot accept the fact that the Aristo brand as we know it is DEAD. Until the deniers accept that then there will be no peace for the poor dog.

I will give one Aristo-Naut credit for optimism. He is hoping that Aristo will bring out more new product (not just new old stock that has languished on a wharehouse floor for two years) before December 31st to capitalise on the investment in ‘new’ tooling. The question will be who actually owns the new tooling.

Ray Dunakin said:

Craig Townsend said:

I guess the ‘faithful’ couldn’t see the handwriting on the wall.

I don’t know what “faithful” you’re referring to, but it was obvious that the company was struggling, so this sad news is no surprise.

Yet weeks ago on the Aristo forum Tate publicly denied any rumors that AC was shutting its doors… How many pages of “ya, good ridden those naysayers” were posted? Huh? As TOC says "don’t mind the man behind the curtain! :slight_smile:

Ray don’t you remember these threads?

http://www.largescalecentral.com/forums/topic/19648/new-web-site-for-the-revo-and-cr

http://www.largescalecentral.com/forums/topic/19846/oct-2013-gr-no-ac-ads

and most importantly this one?

http://www.largescalecentral.com/forums/topic/19693/put-the-rummers-to-rest

What about this on the AC forum? Oh wait I can’t find a link on the AC page… Google can’t seem to find it either…

Oh but there’s this one. http://www.aristocraftforum.com/vbulletinforums/showthread.php?t=20675

Ray Dunakin said:

Craig Townsend said:

I guess the ‘faithful’ couldn’t see the handwriting on the wall.

I don’t know what “faithful” you’re referring to, but it was obvious that the company was struggling, so this sad news is no surprise.

Geez, Ray. Beating the drum, shouting against anyone who doesn’t believe the same mantra you do…and now it’s no surprise?
Good Lord.

All you deny-ers up until today…don’t ever read the Book of Revelation.
I can see the denials now.

TOC

Tim Brien said:

I do not call it ‘intuition’ like some deniers, but base my thoughts on what is happening now and simple common sense.

Now to the fall of the almighty. Well, it was guessed that the ‘haters’ were responsible for ALL Aristo’s problems, but guess what it now is not just the haters but apparently the government as well. Gee, I never guessed the federal governemnt hated Aristo as some of us supposedly do.

Tim,

As I mentioned before, and others did, too… common sense is in very short supply.

I’m not going to the government part, but today I shake my head more often than other days.

Oh BTW the weather forecast was for rain until Thursday, those guys lie through their teeth like some other people I know; I’m outside working on the layout, vacations put a kink in my plans. I hate it when that happens. :wink: :slight_smile: :wink:

Just for grins and chuckles. Those who cannot access it. For the purpose of comment and review:

Primary Source vs. Reliable Sources


The rumor mill is running at full production and working overtime.

Unfortunately there’s no quality control to the information it is producing. The “Reliable Sources” brand of information showing up on some websites and yahoogroups e-mail lists is based on hearsay, and is simply incorrect.

After being bombarded with e-mails and phone calls about Aristo-Craft closing its doors “in a few days”, it was time to sit with the Primary Source of information about Aristo-Craft, namely Lewis & Maryann Polk and Scott Polk. TATE spent two hours this afternoon in Irvington with them talking about the business, the future of Crest Electronics, the 27,000 sq ft warehouse, and the rumor campaign to kick dirt onto the business and declare it dead.

By now, just about all of you know that “TATE” is a living, breathing individual. He is neither Scott, nor Lewis. He is a fourteen year employee of Polk’s Model Craft Hobbies who has had the responsibility of being a digital presence to serve and represent the needs of you the Customer. He’s paid for his work. He’s always been straight with the Customer, and that won’t change now.

As you read this, I’d ask that you quiet your “hobbyist” brain and rely on your “business” brain.

The 2013 Landscape:
• The Large Scale manufacturing landscape has changed dramatically in the past five years.
• The Large Scale retail landscape has been rocked by economic conditions and a major shift in consumer buying habits.
• Large Scale is a niche market.

Primary Source Facts:
• Polks Model Craft Hobbies owns a number of businesses, all of which have operated under one roof in Irvington, NJ (and Jersey City, NJ prior to that).
• Polks Model Craft Hobbies is a privately owned, for-profit corporation.
• The Polk family owns and operates the corporation and annually makes decisions in the best interests of business continuity and profitability, always with an eye toward serving its Customer base.

Here’s the word from the Polk’s … THE Primary Source …

Aristo-Craft is NOT closing its doors “in a few days” … And no one, no “West Coast reliable source”, or “reliable source at a Greenberg Show”, or any other “in the know” technical pundant has the inside scoop about a closing. While the Polks do not have a crystal ball which will tell the future, the closing of Aristo-Craft is not imminent. Aristo-Craft has a container of product arriving Mon/Tues next week. There is also a container arriving in early Nov. The containers will bring a variety of product into the warehouse, not just the upgraded 0-4-0s. As Mark Twain said, “The reports of my death are greatly exaggerated.”

The Crest Electronics business has not been sold, traded, given or otherwise transferred to an Aristo employee, group of employees or any other new owner. The Crest Electronics business has been the Polks’ radio control business for decades (trains, planes and automobiles). It has brought to market a number of innovative products and has done quite well despite larger, hobby related economic issues. The current Revolution system has been very successful and that success drives its expansion. Revolution system components for G will be restocked approx mid-Sept. JK is going overseas early in Sept to the manufacturing site for QC and for development work on a line extension. “Reliable sources” may post that expanding beyond G is a recipe for disaster, a business analysis indicates otherwise … and separating the Crest product line from the Aristo-Craft product lineup broadens the Crest nameplate and allows other gauges to more readily be Customer accepted. ( example - HO enthusiasts wouldn’t look at a G Gauge product lineup for a product directed at them.) For those with short memories, Aristo-Craft is no stranger to the HO marketplace.

RMT / Arist0 was NOT a drain on the company. In fact, it has been quite the opposite. As the G Gauge marketplace continues its anemic buying patterns, the O Gauge market has been steady and fruitful.
A post was made about how the pulling up of the people saw it except as a background in product photography. Gone in a realignment of resources.

The same post mentioned how empty the warehouse seemed on the same visit. It’s a 27,000 square foot warehouse. When business was at its peak it held a few million dollars of inventory and then it wasn’t at more than 75% capacity. In today’s environment that much inventory would drown the business. Today, it’s much more overhead than the company needs. The warehouse is for sale as of Sept 1, as a right-sized facility is sought. The business requires a warehouse that fits its needs and resources, not one that drains it in a business with smaller inventory needs.

So here’s a great example of how “reliable source” information gets it wrong. A post on a yahoogroup reported that Aristo’s buildings would no longer be produced and implied the molds were for sale. Fact = Aristo building for sale. Rumor = building line dropped, molds for sale. Fact = the building line will not see another production run in 2013. Rumor = Aristo out of the building product line.

Today it was “rumored” that a $1M investment had been made in the Company and that would bring with it new ownership. JP Morgan China was mentioned as investing. Not correct. JP Morgan China
bought Sanda Kan from the original US owners. They ran it into the ground and were about to go under. Kader (not Bachmann) bought it from them. JP Morgan China did “touch” Aristo in that that way. They are not a “$1M” investor in any part of Polks Model Craft Hobbies. Lewis, Maryann and Scott confirm that there is not a new owner.

An internet post pointed at Scott Polk as the cause of the demise of the retail hobby shop by taking the Aristo business to consumer-direct. Scott, Lewis and Maryann put a rather startling fact on the table … in the fiscal year prior to the move to consumer direct, sales to retailers declined by 85% . With a warehouse filled with product, and 85% of your primary sales channel gone, the writing was on the wall. Develop a new sales channel or shut down. Going direct kept Aristo-Craft selling. The closing of hobby retailers across the country was driven by issues much larger than the Aristo-Craft sales channel change. In fact, the previous years’ massive retail channel decline mirrored the changing buying habits of consumers in a wide variety of businesses.

The grain of truth behind the rumors is that it’s a very challenging financial situation. Adapt, improvise and succeed. Status quo and go quietly. There are changes, visible and behind the scenes.

There are fewer people working at the warehouse. Never an easy decision.

JJProductions (a Polks company) will have an announcement about not producing a 2014 ECLSTS (fear not! … more news to follow on that)

A keen eye and a sharp pencil will be needed in the coming months to manage P&L.

The company may well have a new address in 2014.outdoor layout in Irvington was an indication of the failed financials of the company and the departure of Aristo-Craft from the marketplace. The layout is gone for one simple reason … it contributed nothing to the business and took time and money to maintain. The property is in an urban industrial area, and hidden behind another building. It didn’t grace a retail establishment but a warehouse and an office. Very, very few

The changes that you will see are designed for the health and longevity of Polks Model Craft Hobbies and its family of companies.

There are the facts from the Primary Source.

The 2013 Landscape:
• The Large Scale manufacturing landscape has changed dramatically in the past five years.
• The Large Scale retail landscape has been rocked by economic conditions and a major shift in consumer buying habits.
• Large Scale is a niche market.

Primary Source Facts:
• Polks Model Craft Hobbies owns a number of businesses, all of which have operated under one roof in Irvington, NJ (and Jersey City, NJ prior to that).
• Polks Model Craft Hobbies is a privately owned, for-profit corporation.
• The Polk family owns and operates the corporation and annually makes decisions in the best interests of business continuity and profitability, always with an eye toward serving its Customer base.

Here’s the word from the Polk’s … THE Primary Source …

Aristo-Craft is NOT closing its doors “in a few days” … And no one, no “West Coast reliable source”, or “reliable source at a Greenberg Show”, or any other “in the know” technical pundant has the inside scoop about a closing. While the Polks do not have a crystal ball which will tell the future, the closing of Aristo-Craft is not imminent. Aristo-Craft has a container of product arriving Mon/Tues next week. There is also a container arriving in early Nov. The containers will bring a variety of product into the warehouse, not just the upgraded 0-4-0s. As Mark Twain said, “The reports of my death are greatly exaggerated.”

The Crest Electronics business has not been sold, traded, given or otherwise transferred to an Aristo employee, group of employees or any other new owner. The Crest Electronics business has been the Polks’ radio control business for decades (trains, planes and automobiles). It has brought to market a number of innovative products and has done quite well despite larger, hobby related economic issues. The current Revolution system has been very successful and that success drives its expansion. Revolution system components for G will be restocked approx mid-Sept. JK is going overseas early in Sept to the manufacturing site for QC and for development work on a line extension. “Reliable sources” may post that expanding beyond G is a recipe for disaster, a business analysis indicates otherwise … and separating the Crest product line from the Aristo-Craft product lineup broadens the Crest nameplate and allows other gauges to more readily be Customer accepted. ( example - HO enthusiasts wouldn’t look at a G Gauge product lineup for a product directed at them.) For those with short memories, Aristo-Craft is no stranger to the HO marketplace.

RMT / Arist0 was NOT a drain on the company. In fact, it has been quite the opposite. As the G Gauge marketplace continues its anemic buying patterns, the O Gauge market has been steady and fruitful.
A post was made about how the pulling up of the people saw it except as a background in product photography. Gone in a realignment of resources.

The same post mentioned how empty the warehouse seemed on the same visit. It’s a 27,000 square foot warehouse. When business was at its peak it held a few million dollars of inventory

and then it wasn’t at more than 75% capacity. In today’s environment that much inventory would drown the business. Today, it’s much more overhead than the company needs. The warehouse is for sale as of Sept 1, as a right-sized facility is sought. The business requires a warehouse that fits its needs and resources, not one that drains it in a business with smaller inventory needs.

So here’s a great example of how “reliable source” information gets it wrong. A post on a yahoogroup reported that Aristo’s buildings would no longer be produced and implied the molds were for sale. Fact = Aristo building for sale. Rumor = building line dropped, molds for sale. Fact = the building line will not see another production run in 2013. Rumor = Aristo out of the building product line.

Today it was “rumored” that a $1M investment had been made in the Company and that would bring with it new ownership. JP Morgan China was mentioned as investing. Not correct. JP Morgan China
bought Sanda Kan from the original US owners. They ran it into the ground and were about to go under. Kader (not Bachmann) bought it from them. JP Morgan China did “touch” Aristo in that that way. They are not a “$1M” investor in any part of Polks Model Craft Hobbies. Lewis, Maryann and Scott confirm that there is not a new owner.

An internet post pointed at Scott Polk as the cause of the demise of the retail hobby shop by taking the Aristo business to consumer-direct. Scott, Lewis and Maryann put a rather startling fact on the table … in the fiscal year prior to the move to consumer direct, sales to retailers declined by 85% . With a warehouse filled with product, and 85% of your primary sales channel gone, the writing was on the wall. Develop a new sales channel or shut down. Going direct kept Aristo-Craft selling. The closing of hobby retailers across the country was driven by issues much larger than the Aristo-Craft sales channel change. In fact, the previous years’ massive retail channel decline mirrored the changing buying habits of consumers in a wide variety of businesses.

The grain of truth behind the rumors is that it’s a very challenging financial situation. Adapt, improvise and succeed. Status quo and go quietly. There are changes, visible and behind the scenes.

There are fewer people working at the warehouse. Never an easy decision.

JJProductions (a Polks company) will have an announcement about not producing a 2014 ECLSTS (fear not! … more news to follow on that)

A keen eye and a sharp pencil will be needed in the coming months to manage P&L.

The company may well have a new address in 2014.outdoor layout in Irvington was an indication of the failed financials of the company and the departure of Aristo-Craft from the marketplace. The layout is gone for one simple reason … it contributed nothing to the business and took time and money to maintain. The property is in an urban industrial area, and hidden behind another building. It didn’t grace a retail establishment but a warehouse and an office. Very, very few

people saw it except as a background in product photography. Gone in a realignment of resources.

The same post mentioned how empty the warehouse seemed on the same visit. It’s a 27,000 square foot warehouse. When business was at its peak it held a few million dollars of inventory and then it wasn’t at more than 75% capacity. In today’s environment that much inventory would drown the business. Today, it’s much more overhead than the company needs. The warehouse is for sale as of Sept 1, as a right-sized facility is sought. The business requires a warehouse that fits its needs and resources, not one that drains it in a business with smaller inventory needs.

So here’s a great example of how “reliable source” information gets it wrong. A post on a yahoogroup reported that Aristo’s buildings would no longer be produced and implied the molds were for sale. Fact = Aristo building for sale. Rumor = building line dropped, molds for sale. Fact = the building line will not see another production run in 2013. Rumor = Aristo out of the building product line.

Today it was “rumored” that a $1M investment had been made in the Company and that would bring with it new ownership. JP Morgan China was mentioned as investing. Not correct. JP Morgan China
bought Sanda Kan from the original US owners. They ran it into the ground and were about to go under. Kader (not Bachmann) bought it from them. JP Morgan China did “touch” Aristo in that that way. They are not a “$1M” investor in any part of Polks Model Craft Hobbies. Lewis, Maryann and Scott confirm that there is not a new owner.

An internet post pointed at Scott Polk as the cause of the demise of the retail hobby shop by taking the Aristo business to consumer-direct. Scott, Lewis and Maryann put a rather startling fact on the table … in the fiscal year prior to the move to consumer direct, sales to retailers declined by 85% . With a warehouse filled with product, and 85% of your primary sales channel gone, the writing was on the wall. Develop a new sales channel or shut down. Going direct kept Aristo-Craft selling. The closing of hobby retailers across the country was driven by issues much larger than the Aristo-Craft sales channel change. In fact, the previous years’ massive retail channel decline mirrored the changing buying habits of consumers in a wide variety of businesses.

The grain of truth behind the rumors is that it’s a very challenging financial situation. Adapt, improvise and succeed. Status quo and go quietly. There are changes, visible and behind the scenes.

There are fewer people working at the warehouse. Never an easy decision.

JJProductions (a Polks company) will have an announcement about not producing a 2014 ECLSTS (fear not! … more news to follow on that)

A keen eye and a sharp pencil will be needed in the coming months to manage P&L.

The company may well have a new address in 2014.

The changes that you will see are designed for the health and longevity of Polks Model Craft Hobbies and its family of companies.

There are the facts from the Primary Source.


Enjoy Your Trains!
TATE
The Aristo Train Engineer

Dave,

Thanks for the screen shot… I search and searched the AC forum (by far spending to much time) and google, but atlas no ‘record’ of the above posting…

BTW did you see that TATE publicly revealed who he was? Not that many of us didn’t know that already.

How many of those statements have been proven false since the release? :wink:

The following excerpt from Aristo reminds me of the famous words of an ex-US president and his relationship with a young White house Aide.

“Aristo-Craft is NOT closing its doors “in a few days” … And no one, no “West Coast reliable source”, or “reliable source at a Greenberg Show”, or any other “in the know” technical pundant has the inside scoop about a closing.”

If you believe that then you believe the White House relationship was merely platonic. The problem is that TATE thought that he was preaching to the converted and did not realise that some independent thinkers actually know how to read. A definate advantage when one is being spun a line.

Good lord: That’s a lot of words, TOC.

I’m going to take you up on your signature:

“Nothing to see… move along…” :slight_smile:

Change, it always happens. Suck it up. Move on.

Mark Dash said:

Attack Aristocraft or their products all you want but when you start insulting fellow forum members even with petty names like Kool aid Drinkers is not called for.

I agree! I’ve never understood why some insist on insulting people simply because they aren’t jumping on the bashing bandwagon or chortling over the demise of a LS company.