Large Scale Central

Plastic-Compatible Lubrication? A Myth?

General Discussion
#1

The following is from TRAINFAN1, a response I found after using Google and the heading “Plastic Compatible Oil.” Clearly, this author is adamant there is no damage to our hobby from using a “non-plastic compatible” oil. It is worth a read.

David Nebenzahl wrote:

"Folks, I’m here to bust another of those persistent myths that linger around the world of model railroading. Today’s target: “plastic-compatible oil”. I’ve heard this said enough around here recently that this myth deserves to be put to rest, again.

"This seems to be another of those claims made by the manufacturers of certain products, which strikes enough fear in the heart of the consumer for them to choose their product over someone else’s.

"I challenge anyone to find an oil that will actually damage the plastics used in model railroad drives, which are mostly so-called acetal or “engineering” plastic (strictly speaking, polyoxymethylene). This material is by nature resistant to all oils, greases and most solvents except the very strongest (like acetone, MEK, etc.) This stands to reason, since this plastic is formulated for use as gears and cams, which typically need lubrication.

"I’ve used ordinary oil and grease on plastic gears for years with no ill effects. No oil or grease is going to dissolve or break down your Athearn or Kato (or even Overland) gearboxes. (For grease, I keep a can of white lithium wheel bearing grease handy: works like a charm.) "

---------------- end of quote --------

The big question: So is there any emperical data from our readers to support the author’s claim other than his stated experience? Has anyone literally soaked gear parts in “dino oil” or "3-in-One or ?? and affirmed damage done compared to “mineral” or synthetic? Over what time period was the comparison made? Is David accurate that we are simply repeating what seems logical but a myth?

After my “conversion” to synthetic Mobile 1 as the main lubricant at the Living Desert garden RR display in Palm Desert, Calif., I now use only a plastic compatible oil. Clearly, I am still interested in the on-going debate as to the damage or non-damage that is acclaimed to be prevented. Over the year of use, I have lubed over 50 locos and 100 rolling stock wheel journals. No problem reported from the use of this synthetic. Of course, to favor David’s claim, this does not prove there would have been damage if a “non-compatible” oil was used.

Lastly: If the data is conclusive certain oils are damaging to plastic gears, and author David Nebenzahl is in error, what is a “non-compatible” oil? Is it “dino oil” vs. certain types of mineral based oil? Does synthetic resolve the entire situation by being BOTH compatible and the cheapest choice?

What evidence do you have that is conclusive and not myth?

Wendell

#2

the grease in the LGB motorblocks looked like vaseline to me.
so where ever i needed to grease something, i used vaseline.
well, vaseline is no oil, but it works.
.

#3

I don’t know the answer, but I generally use a synthetic, silicone lubricant for plastic gears unless something else is specified.

#4

There is a product on the market from Aristo that is sold as plastic compatible.

It was capable of producing cracks in wheel journals within 24 hours.

Read this thread on the Aristo forum, complete with pictures of the damage

http://www.aristocraft.com/vbulletinforums/showthread.php?t=5686

I had a jar of it, and it ate through the container.

It can happen.

Regards, Greg

#5

I’ve generally used whatever’s been handy over the years, including a big honkin’ vat of military surplus grease fairly early on (c. 1980). Those locos seem to be holding up quite nicely. I also make judicious use of white lithium grease. I’ve had gears break and wear down, but whether that’s attributable to the lubrication or something else like the worm simply eating the worm gear through regular use is really anyone’s guess.

Later,

K

#6

The author mentioned in the quote is referring to smaller scale gearboxes made from nylon and acetal and most likely a basically sealed/contained unit. The problem with largescale, with its exposed gearbox drive trains, is that grease and oil, intended for the drive, invariably finishes up on exposed non-engineering plastic parts. I will not even use smoke oil as it is a contaminant.

#7

My 2c, and many will want change - If you’re going to spend $200 - $2,000 on a toy locomotive. Then where is there any sense in trying to save 2c on lubricants? Considering how little you use, is the ‘proper’ stuff really THAT expensive? I’m still working on my 2nd little jar of LGB grease… and I’ve been playing in LS since the first battery bug mauler.

Maybe it is a ‘myth’, and maybe some plastics will react with some lubricants - Ask yourself the question phrased THIS way; Are the ‘savings’ really WORTH the possible risk? (Remembering that by using the other stuff you also probably voided the warantee)

#8

Mr. David Nebenzahl’s observation that acetal resins are used for many gear boxes & gear box components is correct.

What he misses is that the rest of the engine and rolling stock, including the trucks, are made from other plastics. These parts are subject to slow but serious degradation in the presence of many lubricants. Petroleum based oils tend to be the worst offenders, but there are many incompatible combinations. One has to know the actual formulation of both the plastic materials and the applied lubricants to be certain. Even then, some serious accelerated testing is usually required to make certain there are no long-term effects.

We have used Nye Lubricants in some of the industrial machines I design and work on. Here is a link to a short paper by Nye that discusses plastic compatible lubricants:

http://www.nyelubricants.com/pdf/1nyeplasticcomp.pdf

Note the table on the second page showing three levels of compatibility between several lubricants and various plastics. Using a lubricant that is incompatible with a plastic can take years to show degradation, but it is still happening and will eventually cause cosmetic and / or structural failure of the part.

As to using any old lube on the gearbox, remember that the lube is both thrown off by the mechanical action of the mechanism and is vaporized by the heat and operation of the machinery. The small amounts thrown off and vaporized can still affect plastics that are not compatible with that particular lubricant.

I would never apply, nor allow an unknown lubricant to come in contact with a plastic part. As Mik points out, you are using less than a penny’s worth of lube on an expensive locomotive or car. Why take a chance on destroying the expensive model?

I see that Mr. Nebenzahl’s proclamation was made in 2005. Since plastic degradation from the chemical attack of a lubricant is a relatively slow process, it would be interesting to see some of his rolling stock after 5 years of exposure.

Happy RRing,

Jerry

#9

The Hatter was the first to break the silence. `What day of the month is it?’ he said, turning to Alice: he had taken his watch out of his pocket, and was looking at it uneasily, shaking it every now and then, and holding it to his ear.

Alice considered a little, and then said `The fourth.’

Two days wrong!' sighed the Hatter. I told you butter wouldn’t suit the works!’ he added looking angrily at the March Hare.

`It was the best butter,’ the March Hare meekly replied.

Yes, but some crumbs must have got in as well,' the Hatter grumbled: you shouldn’t have put it in with the bread-knife.’

The March Hare took the watch and looked at it gloomily: then he dipped it into his cup of tea, and looked at it again: but he could think of nothing better to say than his first remark, `It was the best butter, you know.’

#10

Wendell,

I’ve been using good 'ol 3 in 1 oil on my tenmille ground throws outdoors, Kadee couplers and also to lube truck journals (mostly Bachmann with metal wheels) once a year for many years. I seldom ever mention this just because of the many warnings others have posted over the years. I don’t want to lead anyone astray if others have had issues with 3 in 1 oil. Too, different conditions and/or products may give different results.

I don’t buy 3 in 1 because I’m trying to “save 2 cents” but rather because it is readily available and has worked well for me for many years. I’m nowhere near a place that sells hobby lubes anyway and would have to mail order them.

My own opinion is that for most uses any oil that is compatible for sewing machines, etc., which have themselves plastic parts, should be safe for our use. However as with most things I mention I neither recommend nor advocate anything but rather merely report my own particular experiences.

Adenda:
I must clarify one thing and that is that I use a light grease type of lubricant on locomotive gears that is itself I believe a “plastic compatible” type. My gears are so seldom touched that I forgot about them when I made the post. In fact they’ll likely freeze up before I think of lubing them again. hehe!
:slight_smile: :smiley:

#11

Richard and all:
Of course, one response to my initial posting and quoted article is simply don’t challenge the distinction between “plastic compatible” and “non-plastic compatible” and simply, as Richard andothers have stated above, use any oil that is recommended for products that have plastic parts.

I use the Mobil 1 products – both the synthetic grease and the 10-30 oil. I got this tip from a former LGB manager that LGB’s oil in the tube was German transmission oil. He indicated the synthetics are fine – and thus recommended Mobil 1’s product line.

So at this point David Nebanzanhal’s conclusion appears to have had a fair hearing from our group.

Wendell

#12

Some that aren’t labeled as plastic compatible are. I have seen plastic crumble. I have 2 tubes of train oil. and 1 of Labelle gear grease. At the rate we use them in model railroads, they last for years.

“Whos Mallet is that squeaking down the track?”

#13

This was an early concern of mine. What would I use and recommend. I have had my concerns about the corrosive aspects of non-synthetic lubes, but like mik it just isn’t worth it.

I found SuperLube, a synthetic, which at one time had a food grade. No more food grade, but still used. I include a small tube in every gear product I ship and have done so for 16 years.

Barry - BBT

#14

LaBelle’s has always worked for me :slight_smile:

#15

Rooster Lube is what I use

#16

Sheep dip.

#17

Rooster Lube??? hasn’t that too much ammoniak in it?

#18

Tip: Barry Olsen knows what he’s talking about.

#19

Barry –
At Super-Lube.com there are a number of grease listings. Does your success include the synthetic or silicone types? I checked the choices on their site and some are clearly food grade (wrong presumption harmless to plastic?) and some are not stated as fully food-safe. However, are not all Super-Lube products declared plastic safe?

I would ppreciate hearing your choice and if you order directly from the mfg. To use a product other than an automotive product would relieve any reticence by volunteers to help lubricate the huge rolling stock at the Living Desert outdoor railroad. The LGB products, when available, are simply too expensive and with the LGB brand on them they can disappear.

Many thanks,
Wendell

#20
David Russell said:
Rooster Lube is what I use
You mean "chicken fat"? It'll work, but it gets to stinkin.