Large Scale Central

OPEN DISCUSSION on the MIK build Challenges

Dave you do an outstanding job of herding the cats and keeping this fun challenge going.

I agree with your summation on the 3D printing and the rules that will be applied next time. 3D printing certainly does give the user an edge with the fine details that otherwise would have to be bought, built or scavenged but overall the 3D printed bits do not make up the whole of the builds we have seen, so far…

30 days $30 dollars is terrific. I think most of us stay around the $10 mark with some, like my entry this year not costing a dime.
I do think that some guys might be intimidated by the amazing builds that happen every year so maybe we should bring back the beginner award?
I’m not sure what to do about the declining participation but maybe it will be better next year. I think people are really worn out from the pandemic and politics.

As for themes I have always liked the idea where we started off with the same piece like the door, chimney and tin can. It is really fun to see the variations on the theme, say the door, and the imaginative creations that sprang from it.
In the future we should keep the theme of starting off with the same item. Having just bent up a wire coat hanger to form railings on my transfer caboose could be a theme in the future. We probably all have a wire hanger in our closets. Other starting points could be a beer bottle, a pill bottle, a chunk of wood like with the 2x4 challenge. How about a shoelace? How about a key chain fob? There are so many types that are available from gift shops to hardware stores and most for under $5. I once used 2 key belt clips to make swivel hooks on my 250 ton crane build. These ideas lend themselves to both rolling stock and buildings.

I do like the Win Place and Show plus the Spirit of Mik awards. I do think we should be able to offer up our thoughts on who has captured the Spirit but it is fine that you have the final say. Having won it a few years I do miss the Miss Congeniality award. :grin: It is often difficult to pick a winner in these challenges because everyone does a great job but still no one wants to step on anyone’s toes and slight a friend so emphasizing that you will accept votes in direct messages is a good idea to keep everyone content.

Keep up the great work Dave and Happy RRing!

Dave,
I have said it many times before and I will say it again. "Thank you " for the work you dedicate to the challenge every year. The 3D printing is a catch 22 IMO. Would Mik have had one? I highly doubt it. However it brings in a new level of creativity and the way modeling seems to be heading.
The only thing I don’t like about it is if one were to pay for it ( like shapeways) the $30 budget would be out the window. We all have saws,drills,nails,screws,etc. but not all can afford 3D printers or laser cutters and even if we could “Like you said” do we want to take the time to learn them? It’s kinda like me mig welding up a large steel bridge in my automotive shop for the challenge. I have the steel and mig welder on hand so it doesn’t count against my budget ?
I have stewed on this since it was brought up and I AGREE (originally I didn’t) that it should be allowed in the challenge. The original challenge from my understanding was to get off your donkey and build something in a certain amount of time. Would Mik have liked it …can’t answer that but I bet he would have asked the guys with them for some freebies :slightly_smiling_face:
I suppose its all up to the voters and how they decide. I know when I voted this year(every year) I VOTE WITH THE SPIRIT OF MIK CHALLENGE IN MIND. Now if it was an NMRA convention or something of that nature I would have voted differently.
Either way I always enjoy and look forward to it every year and I hope you keep hosting it like you have. “It brings the crew together” !
As for the Amtrak build …nobody likes Amtrak but me and the other guys on the internet that pay CRAZY prices for it and pound away on my Amtrak threads that nobody likes!

:Editing: As I’m steadily realizing that I’m slowly (rapidly) becoming one of the "elders on LSC. The only train modeling forum,form,for’em, or against them that I have know in my short career of modeling, playing with model trains outside .
B.D got my cherry …
:rooster:

I’ve had trouble putting my thought to word so it’s taken a while to get here. I agree 3D is a new aspect of an old hobby along with laser cutters, CNC machines, and the like. And users should be able to incorporate the needed skills these tools require in their builds. Few back in the day had use of the assortment of hand power tools we take for granted these days, and the powered mini tools available to the hobbyist now. But most have embraced technology over the years.
My only contention with 3D is the basically open detail shop with thousands of high quality detailed parts a 3D printer gives to those users.
Maybe I’d see it different if we put a cost perspective on their use. Everyone can buy a few details from Ozark and others. hell a brake wheel and pawl cost less than $10.00 I guess. But if I want to build a car like Dave built the other year and didn’t have $50.00 worth of fittings on hand I’d be out of the build.
Maybe an example for a challenge would be a full machine shop with overhead belt drive power system. Something tells me you could print it out and get it together in 30 days if you had the knowledge and do it all for under $20.00. But would it be in the spirit of MIK
I vote the build not the details or lack there of, but when you participate in the build challenge you might vote the detail more than the build.
Just my take on the elephant.

Dave. I read what you wrote. And I only want to briefly address some of the things you asked/mentioned.

Keep it 30 day 30 dollars plus what you have on hand. I see no reason to change that.

I like single theme categories and only one for everyone. Your keeping it plenty broad enough. Recyling would be fine also. I had fun with the chunk of 2X4 and the provided part. To which I am willing to help by providing a dreaded 3D printed part.

You are doing great. I appreciate all you do. They are a lot of fun.

Well said, Dave. Many thanks for continuing to host this (in spite of all the headaches!), for expressing your experience and opinions, and for clarifying the rules.

And thanks everyone else for your thoughts as well. This is my first year being involved, and I’ve been slow to pick up on all the history and nuances. Your stories and insights are much appreciated.

Cliff

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Now am I correct is assuming that the 30 dollar cap is supplies that you actually purchase for the entry in the challenge? This cap does not include what you have on hand?
The reason I ask is:
Over the years I have accumulated enough supplies and parts to stock a small hobby shop. :smiley:
I felt I would exceed the cap very quickly if I participated in the Mik challenge, so I just sat back and enjoyed what others have built.

John… The $30 is what you spend on the new build… Anything you have on hand before the Jan 1st revile dosn’t count towards the $30 limit…

Dave .

What you have on hand before the challenge begins has always been considered “free”. I have pretty good stock built up myself!

First and foremost I want to emphasize THIS IS MY OPINION! Apparently my first post which started this whole fray, which I opened with “… MY THOUGHTS”, was taken personally by some.

I am a professional solid modeler using the same high end software that Cliff uses, not sure on others. I want folks to fully understand I know the time involved to generate a detailed solid model. I also fully comprehend that some detail when scaled down either moves outside the parameters of the printing apparatus, or just plain dissappears. This generates more time going back to the model to ‘fudge’ that detail ore remove it completely. There are lots of other processes that I could cover, but I hope you get the picture that I understand the solid model/3D print process.

Now to my take on the MIK Challenge. Craig got most of it right with his satatement “Pros: 30 days, $30 limit is well within the spirit of MIK.” What got left out is ’ what you have in your junk box or can trade, beg, or borrow’. I recognize that MIK did not foresee the technology we have available today.

Craig also stated “I see the MIK build as “get off my butt and do something””. This is EXACTLY what the MIK Challenge is. He recognized that after the holidays, most folks fell into the doldrums and saw this challenge as a means to motivate folks and get the new year started on a positive foot.

In response to Cliff’s statement “Regarding tools, it’s not only if you draw the line, but where. Mills, lathes, table saws, large power tools in general, might be considered “technical” by folks wanting to keep the build entirely manual (or not having access to those tools).”, I would ask the question “Who does not own a table saw or band saw, and drill press (of any kind)?” These tools are near staples of any home owner and most are available for less than $250.00 each. The last time I researched 3D printers, to obtain a mid level quality printer was over 4 times that amount.

“I think we’re going to see more and more folks whose building ability is almost entirely via “technical” means. Fewer and fewer kids grow up using manual build skills, but are learning 3D modeling in school. Why would we want to keep them out?” This is not about keeping anyone out. Just because a student learns how to do something in school does not mean he has the technology available at home. I see the technology becoming more common in the future, bot today is not the future. And looking at the voting for this year’s challenge, technical modeling garnered many of the votes. And the inverse of your question in my mind is “How many new modelers will we drive away or cause to not participate because they DON’T HAVE the technical ADVANTAGE?”

I see COMPUTER DRIVEN TOOLS as a severe tilt in the playing field of the challenge. If we are to continue to include computer driven tools (in particular printers because they rely on a specific material to operate), the material needs to be included in the $30.00 limit. Steve_GScale stated it nicely. Building on that comment, 3D printing allows the owner an ‘unlimited customizable’ parts box which in my opinion also tilts the playing field. Considering a 3d printed part can be made for say $.20 worth of filament, the equivalent part from Ozark my be a couple of dollars. Another imbalance.

For the MIK Challenge I am not against the technology, but it’s application. I could ignore the 3D printed parts so long as they are printed before January 1. For the duration of the challenge the printer is off limits. Otherwise I would support a split challenge. Two categories, TRADITIONAL where NO computer driven tools are utilized, and a TECHNICAL where anything goes. Allow those who don’t have the technology the opportunity to compete on a level playing field.

Again, this is MY OPINION. This is my final thoughts on this topic, I will not respond further, I believe I have been clear enough.

Dave Taylor, thank you for ‘Herding Cats’ for the challenge over the years. I look forward to the future ones.

Bob,

You may want to check prices again. An AnyCubic photon, similar to the first one I bought us 239 bucks and Fusion360 comes in a free version. And as can be seen by the folks on this forum more and more people are turning up owning them. They are NO different today than any other tool we have bought ourselves over the years. They are no longer out of reach to the average moder and they are the way the hobby will go. We not only need to accept it but encourage and embrace the people using it. I am willing to bet in ten years there will be far less people who have a garage full if tools.

And if we are limited to only those parts we had on hand prior to the challenge, then insay no casting parts, you are limited to what you had on hand. No milling anything, use only what you had on hand. No placing an order to Ozark or some such other.

The point is once we know the theme EVERYONE, has always been able to use whatever means they had to produce their model as long as the limit stayed under the set dollar figure. People were allowed, once they knew what the challenge was, to fire up their table saw, mill, lathe, resin pots, whatever they had to produce a part. No one said boo. I can’t jump on a metal lathe or end mill and bang out parts I want.

Why all of a sudden is a 3D printer taboo. . .why is it the ONLY technology to be limited? That is the thing I am not wrapping my head around. It WOULD BE the ONLY skill/tool ever in the history of MIK to have such a restriction put on it. . .and why, because honestly there are a few old times who simply don’t want to invest in it. They have already invested in the tools they like and have learned to use them well. But they don’t want this new fangled gizmo. So since we don’t want change then we set rules to limit the use to things they are comfortable. I happen to know one of last years contestants had no access to such “normal” tools that everyone owns. Why because he is a kid and came over and borrowed mine. I bet he owns a 3D printer before he owns a table saw.

Said it before and I’ll say it again, and again. We only need One Rule, and that’s Rule #1. I’m not even sure the dollar limit makes sense anymore as so many of us have built up huge stocks of parts and junk. I spent $0 this year, but if I had to buy all that I used I probably would have easily gone over.

Voters are still free to use their discretion and weigh some methods heavier than others.

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I think Jon says it best.

I’m not sure that these tools you speak of Bob are near staples of any home owner.

But does it really matter in the end? I doubt any of those who regularly participate do so with the intention of winning. I believe we all do so for the number one reason Mik started it and that is to have an excuse to get off our rear ends and build something while its too cold to do anything outside and, more importantly, have fun with friends. That is the ONLY reason I participate.

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Might be careful at the thoughts of exempting CNC/3D equipment, where does that stop, do we not allow cars to be driven to pickup supplies, ( being sarcastic). Having the equipment is one thing, but being able to operate it, is the next level that prevents most from doing the same products.
I doubt if any cnc operated parts has given anybody the advantage. A good modeler using cnc machines can make a high quality model without cnc equipment. As I have said for years, it is not the bow, or the arrow, it is the Indian. The idea of making modelers to get off their duffs and have30 days to make something is the thing we do not want to lose.

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I think that part of the reluctance to accept 3D printing is that for many people (I’ve seen this on a bunch of different modeling forums, btw) is that there is a belief that there are already printer-ready models for everything, so all I’m doing when I print out something is downloading and hitting print. Compare that to the reality of, lets say, my roof joists. I went through five different shapes and sizes until I got it close enough. Same for the sets of windows I did. I got the initial frame right because of the measurement, but then several iterations to get the window pane size looking correct. And these are simple objects!

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The only high tech machine in my shop is a Dremel.
I might treat myself to a Byrne’s saw this year.

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John,
I wish I would have invested in a Byrnes Saw many years before I did. I didn’t realize how much a quality mini table saw would change my modeling after using a cheap one for many years.

If you do, upgrade to the larger table. When I ordered mine it was a custom addition but I see now he offers it as an option. Jim must have gotten a lot of requests for bigger tables.

Wish I could justify the price, that saw really looks nice. I like the tilt table option too.

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Jon,
It took me a long time to justify the price as well. The fact that I can now cut my own strips of styrene well eventually save me money with this saw. I’m saving up to buy the tilt table and the cross cut table as I’ve found those would be helpful. Right out of the box I was able to cut a .010" slice out of .030" stock. I was blown away. I’m pretty confident now cutting those thin slices after a couple of years of using it. But it’s not a cheap tool for sure.

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It doesn’t make sense to me ?

Why would a “professional solid modeler” be interested in the Mik Challenge anyway?

Besides you threw out a double sword stating that you would like to introduce new modelers into the hobby but for the duration of the challenge the printer is off limits?

Are you helping the “Hobby” as a “Solid Modeler” or just spouting off for post count?

Only a question ?

:rooster:

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