What you have on hand before the challenge begins has always been considered “free”. I have pretty good stock built up myself!
First and foremost I want to emphasize THIS IS MY OPINION! Apparently my first post which started this whole fray, which I opened with “… MY THOUGHTS”, was taken personally by some.
I am a professional solid modeler using the same high end software that Cliff uses, not sure on others. I want folks to fully understand I know the time involved to generate a detailed solid model. I also fully comprehend that some detail when scaled down either moves outside the parameters of the printing apparatus, or just plain dissappears. This generates more time going back to the model to ‘fudge’ that detail ore remove it completely. There are lots of other processes that I could cover, but I hope you get the picture that I understand the solid model/3D print process.
Now to my take on the MIK Challenge. Craig got most of it right with his satatement “Pros: 30 days, $30 limit is well within the spirit of MIK.” What got left out is ’ what you have in your junk box or can trade, beg, or borrow’. I recognize that MIK did not foresee the technology we have available today.
Craig also stated “I see the MIK build as “get off my butt and do something””. This is EXACTLY what the MIK Challenge is. He recognized that after the holidays, most folks fell into the doldrums and saw this challenge as a means to motivate folks and get the new year started on a positive foot.
In response to Cliff’s statement “Regarding tools, it’s not only if you draw the line, but where. Mills, lathes, table saws, large power tools in general, might be considered “technical” by folks wanting to keep the build entirely manual (or not having access to those tools).”, I would ask the question “Who does not own a table saw or band saw, and drill press (of any kind)?” These tools are near staples of any home owner and most are available for less than $250.00 each. The last time I researched 3D printers, to obtain a mid level quality printer was over 4 times that amount.
“I think we’re going to see more and more folks whose building ability is almost entirely via “technical” means. Fewer and fewer kids grow up using manual build skills, but are learning 3D modeling in school. Why would we want to keep them out?” This is not about keeping anyone out. Just because a student learns how to do something in school does not mean he has the technology available at home. I see the technology becoming more common in the future, bot today is not the future. And looking at the voting for this year’s challenge, technical modeling garnered many of the votes. And the inverse of your question in my mind is “How many new modelers will we drive away or cause to not participate because they DON’T HAVE the technical ADVANTAGE?”
I see COMPUTER DRIVEN TOOLS as a severe tilt in the playing field of the challenge. If we are to continue to include computer driven tools (in particular printers because they rely on a specific material to operate), the material needs to be included in the $30.00 limit. Steve_GScale stated it nicely. Building on that comment, 3D printing allows the owner an ‘unlimited customizable’ parts box which in my opinion also tilts the playing field. Considering a 3d printed part can be made for say $.20 worth of filament, the equivalent part from Ozark my be a couple of dollars. Another imbalance.
For the MIK Challenge I am not against the technology, but it’s application. I could ignore the 3D printed parts so long as they are printed before January 1. For the duration of the challenge the printer is off limits. Otherwise I would support a split challenge. Two categories, TRADITIONAL where NO computer driven tools are utilized, and a TECHNICAL where anything goes. Allow those who don’t have the technology the opportunity to compete on a level playing field.
Again, this is MY OPINION. This is my final thoughts on this topic, I will not respond further, I believe I have been clear enough.
Dave Taylor, thank you for ‘Herding Cats’ for the challenge over the years. I look forward to the future ones.
Bob,
You may want to check prices again. An AnyCubic photon, similar to the first one I bought us 239 bucks and Fusion360 comes in a free version. And as can be seen by the folks on this forum more and more people are turning up owning them. They are NO different today than any other tool we have bought ourselves over the years. They are no longer out of reach to the average moder and they are the way the hobby will go. We not only need to accept it but encourage and embrace the people using it. I am willing to bet in ten years there will be far less people who have a garage full if tools.
And if we are limited to only those parts we had on hand prior to the challenge, then insay no casting parts, you are limited to what you had on hand. No milling anything, use only what you had on hand. No placing an order to Ozark or some such other.
The point is once we know the theme EVERYONE, has always been able to use whatever means they had to produce their model as long as the limit stayed under the set dollar figure. People were allowed, once they knew what the challenge was, to fire up their table saw, mill, lathe, resin pots, whatever they had to produce a part. No one said boo. I can’t jump on a metal lathe or end mill and bang out parts I want.
Why all of a sudden is a 3D printer taboo. . .why is it the ONLY technology to be limited? That is the thing I am not wrapping my head around. It WOULD BE the ONLY skill/tool ever in the history of MIK to have such a restriction put on it. . .and why, because honestly there are a few old times who simply don’t want to invest in it. They have already invested in the tools they like and have learned to use them well. But they don’t want this new fangled gizmo. So since we don’t want change then we set rules to limit the use to things they are comfortable. I happen to know one of last years contestants had no access to such “normal” tools that everyone owns. Why because he is a kid and came over and borrowed mine. I bet he owns a 3D printer before he owns a table saw.
Said it before and I’ll say it again, and again. We only need One Rule, and that’s Rule #1. I’m not even sure the dollar limit makes sense anymore as so many of us have built up huge stocks of parts and junk. I spent $0 this year, but if I had to buy all that I used I probably would have easily gone over.
Voters are still free to use their discretion and weigh some methods heavier than others.
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I think Jon says it best.
I’m not sure that these tools you speak of Bob are near staples of any home owner.
But does it really matter in the end? I doubt any of those who regularly participate do so with the intention of winning. I believe we all do so for the number one reason Mik started it and that is to have an excuse to get off our rear ends and build something while its too cold to do anything outside and, more importantly, have fun with friends. That is the ONLY reason I participate.
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Might be careful at the thoughts of exempting CNC/3D equipment, where does that stop, do we not allow cars to be driven to pickup supplies, ( being sarcastic). Having the equipment is one thing, but being able to operate it, is the next level that prevents most from doing the same products.
I doubt if any cnc operated parts has given anybody the advantage. A good modeler using cnc machines can make a high quality model without cnc equipment. As I have said for years, it is not the bow, or the arrow, it is the Indian. The idea of making modelers to get off their duffs and have30 days to make something is the thing we do not want to lose.
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I think that part of the reluctance to accept 3D printing is that for many people (I’ve seen this on a bunch of different modeling forums, btw) is that there is a belief that there are already printer-ready models for everything, so all I’m doing when I print out something is downloading and hitting print. Compare that to the reality of, lets say, my roof joists. I went through five different shapes and sizes until I got it close enough. Same for the sets of windows I did. I got the initial frame right because of the measurement, but then several iterations to get the window pane size looking correct. And these are simple objects!
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The only high tech machine in my shop is a Dremel.
I might treat myself to a Byrne’s saw this year.
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John,
I wish I would have invested in a Byrnes Saw many years before I did. I didn’t realize how much a quality mini table saw would change my modeling after using a cheap one for many years.
If you do, upgrade to the larger table. When I ordered mine it was a custom addition but I see now he offers it as an option. Jim must have gotten a lot of requests for bigger tables.
Wish I could justify the price, that saw really looks nice. I like the tilt table option too.
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Jon,
It took me a long time to justify the price as well. The fact that I can now cut my own strips of styrene well eventually save me money with this saw. I’m saving up to buy the tilt table and the cross cut table as I’ve found those would be helpful. Right out of the box I was able to cut a .010" slice out of .030" stock. I was blown away. I’m pretty confident now cutting those thin slices after a couple of years of using it. But it’s not a cheap tool for sure.
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It doesn’t make sense to me ?
Why would a “professional solid modeler” be interested in the Mik Challenge anyway?
Besides you threw out a double sword stating that you would like to introduce new modelers into the hobby but for the duration of the challenge the printer is off limits?
Are you helping the “Hobby” as a “Solid Modeler” or just spouting off for post count?
Only a question ?
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Rooster makes a good point.
And it had been my point all along. Are we here to limit the hobby or broaden it. I really struggle with this. I love making things from bits and pieces. But I have come to love CAD. And if we want to be inclusive, if we want to attract as many people and as much diversity as we can, how does offering limits do that?
It just does not make any sense to me to set a rule like 30 dollars 30 days and waterever you have before January 1st and the have a giant BUT you can’t use a 3d printer. Just doesn’t make sense. Especially when the only reason for the rule is because the old timers don’t want to learn or purchase the technology. Because that’s really how I see this, “because we don’t have it we want it banned”. Sorry but thats how it looks to me. Especially since I started as a junk box builder.
When I was young and foolish I was into drag racing. They would let 16 yo kids run down
the track as long as there was at least some rubber on the wheels… but I digress…
To keep things fair we had different classes: stock, funny car, rail, etc. Perhaps we need
several classes:
- classic: no 3d or milling, $30
- advanced: less than %25 3d/milled
- top fuel: anything you can do
Just my opinion and only my opinion… MIK never had a 3d printer nor any other fancy equipment…
His builds were strictly from his scrap box and from what few items he could obtain with the little bit of money he had…
If the challenge is truly in memory of MIK, then that’s how the challenge should be done…
Everything from what is on hand and a max of 20 bucks for materials… No using any ““high Tech””
equipment…
A separate challenge should be instituted for building with anything with a max 30 price range…
Again, just my opinion… Not looking to argue anyone else’s views…
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I could go along with Andy. But I would add that the theme and any such starting point ( a door) would be the same.
The problem I see with over complicating the rules and adding different classes is then the guy who is nice enough to host it (Dave) has to then moderate it, tally votes in multiple categories, and give out whatever honors is given out. Do we really want to make more work for Dave? I don’t.
I say we honor MIK by doing what MIK intended, have a friendly challenge in the doldrums of winter where people built to a theme and a price and let them have at it however they see fit. Yes MIK did build a certain way (out of necessity) but here is my question . . .did MIK ever give a crap how others built stuff during his challenges? Did he EVERY voice an opinion how things “SHOULD” be built? I don’t know I wasn’t around. But from what I gather he wanted participation, he wanted to build, he wanted to gather people, he wanted to do something in the winter as a group.
Are we really honoring MIK as a builder (where we set rules to build as he did) or are we honoring MIK as the host of a build challenge (where we set rules that get any and all people to participate)? I can clearly see where some see this annual challenge as a honor to his methods and others like me see it as an honor to why he hosted the challenge.
I have been a member of many clubs over the years. I have watched ideas come and go. Here are some observations I have made. EVERYONE has an opinion on how it should be done. NOONE but a very small few want to do any of the actual work of running it. This then causes two things to happen. The very few who actually want to do the work become burnt out and the participants get disgruntled because they are not getting their personal way.
Here then is my final recommendation and then I am done beating my drum. All of us, including myself, follow Dave’s lead and be happy and have fun. Whatever Dave says goes and you either participate or you don’t. Now I realize Dave did ask for us to chime in. But I think that was more in response to our whining than anything else. And I certainly include myself in this as probably the biggest whiner of the group. At least the most vocal. So I am going to shut up on the subject. And whatever Dave decides to do I will participate and APPRECIATE the work he does to bring it to us each year.
Perhaps this is the wrong time to ask for a pony but what the hell!
“Can I have a pony cause I always really wanted one” ??
The Challenge has strayed so far from what MIK started it is IMHO it is no longer a MIK Challenge. So lets just call it the Dave Challenge (or any other challenge you so desire) and leave MIK out of it all together. That way everyone can do whatever the hoot they want and no feelings will get hurt.
The concept of a junk box build has been so defiled I think MIK would have walked away years ago,
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I think Bob’s hitting a big nail on the head: Is this a build in memorial to Mik and following exactly his wishes in starting it? Which is totally fine, especially for those who knew him, and/or witnessed the evolution of this contest.
This is why I was hesitant in doing my project, since it used a lot of 3DP parts. So I asked permission before I started, and thought I was given the green light. This is my first participation, and didn’t want to veer from the rules or traditions. In the eyes of some, I did; and I respect that point of view. After all, it’s still called the “Mik Challenge.”
Even so, Dave’s been doing the hard work of keeping this Challenge alive. If not for his work, would it exist anymore? I’d guess not. So for me, what Dave says is what goes for rules on this subject, and Dave has spoken. If he’d said “The is the MIK challenge, and we’re going to play strictly by his original rules,” that’d be fine. But he didn’t.
Maybe two contests would be appropriate, if there were a surplus of willing managers for all that. But I don’t see Dave wanting to split it, or suggesting a separate contest. Nor do I see anyone volunteering to host / moderate a second “tech build” contest. That would be fine with me; but with so few participants anyway, I’d be concerned that one or the other (traditional vs. technical) would languish at this point.
My opinion: abide by Dave’s rules. And when the participation gets too numerous (because it’s hard to vote with too many contestants anyway), put out the suggestion for a second contest based on technical modeling, and the invite for someone to step up and moderate it.
Until then, I think we should band together and either do some modeling, or appreciate those who try.
Cliff
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