Large Scale Central

Old Passenger Cars - Roof Question

Modeling Rolling stock
#1

During the 1870’s - '90s, as I understand things, head-end equipment was varnished rather than painted, hence it came to be called ‘The Varnish’.

O.K. My question is this: What did they do to the roofs on The Varnish? Again as I understand things, the roof was covered in canvas, and the canvas was waterproofed.

Now I suspect that the military would probably have waterproofed their tents with a kerosene-wax solution, and tents were, naturally enough cotton-canvas covered. (Civil war guy - correct me please!)

So what happened up there on the roof of those passenger cars? If a canvas covering was treated like the military did it, I suppose its contact with the supporting wooden structure would make it leak in the rain?!!! -As in a tent?

And if it was waxy, you wouldn’t paint it, would you? Did they really use tar, as our black-roofed models seem to suggest tar over canvas? Is there any basis for the reds or tans sometimes seen on the roofs of B’mann Varnish?

Were there special paints for the job, and if so, do you happen to know anything about the colours available? The colours most popular? Perchance the composition of any such paint?

If you were modelling, or even better, restoring, a piece of Varnish from that period, and you wanted some semblance of accuracy, what would you do to the roof?

Thanks for whatever light you can shine on this!

#2

John,

It is my belief that the varnish was put on over the paint, not instead of the paint. It gave the gloss to the color. I’m not sure as the era where this was practiced and I know that much of the wood on engine cabs was just varnished or bright finished.

#3

Yes, varnish was put on over the paint to give it a high gloss finish and I suppose seal it better. I recently read an article on the roofs but I’ll be darned if I can find it again. As I recall they had a lot of trouble finding roofing material that would stand up to the constant movement and flexing of the cars. I think they used canvas coated with tar, as far as colors go, I can’t answer that one!

#4

I find this thread interesting and intriguing …even though it’s not my cup of tea modeling and RR wise I do have a great appreciation for what was done by guys older than the old guys here(not much older :slight_smile: ) . I love history and just the general craftsmanship over the years. I will await the results and hope others chime in.
:wink:

#5

David, I don’t want to derail this thread, but I also appreciate the incredible pride the railroad and the railroaders took in their work and equipment. When you see the intricate detail in even simple things like lighting fixtures or inlaid wooden trim it amazes me. Even locomotives, which even today are inherently filthy were kept clean and shined. Sadly this kind of pride has gone the way of the galloping geese! Okay, and now back to the thread…still looking for the article on the roofing material!!!

#6

Okay, this is not exactly passenger car roofing, but it is interesting info anyway. As you can see, asphalted canvas was used in the roofs as was tin. This is an excerpt from a google book on freight cars.
"ROOFS.

Their Construction in General.

ROOFING — A satisfactory or a perfect car roof
is one of the great problems which has interested the
railroads throughout the country for a great many
years. That is to say, a roof that is an absolute pro-
tection against the inclemency of the weather, or one
that will, when placed in service, withstand the sway-
ing and twisting of the framework and still be water-
proof, and will not readily blow off in severe wind
storms, and also one that can be walked upon without
injury; one that is not too heavy and can be con-
structed at a reasonable cost. The various forms in
use in freight car construction may be divided gen-
erally into the four following classes:

Firstj what is known as a double board roof, with
or without felt or other material between boards.
To this class belong many roofs in which the boards
are tongued and grooved and have a sheet of painted
canvas, asphalt roofing material or other prepared
materials between them.

Second, single board roofs, covered with tin or
other sheet metal.

Third, roofs made of metal sheets, fastened to
purlines and roof strips, and protected by a single
layer of roughly matched boards.

Fourth, a type of double roof consisting of an
inside roof covered with felt, tar paper or asphalted
canvas, and an outside roof built over it to protect
the roofing material from injury.

The double board roof is perhaps the most com-
mon car roof in use ; it seems to meet the require-
ments for which it was intended fairly well. One^^
the redeeming features of this style roof is that w
can be easily repaired.

The Master Car Builders’ Association have rec-
ommended a standard size roof board, it being
13/16’’ x5j4" or 13/16" x3j4". (See Plate 24). "

#7

In past conversations about the M-1 on the EBT with the guys that restored it. They felt the roof was originally covered with canvas, painted heavily with “red lead” paint and then covered over with metal and once again painted with the “red lead” paint. Through its life, it has been coated with many things, including black tar. It had quite a build up of coatings and it was quite thick.

#8

Some roofing from pretty early on was metal sheets soldered to be water tight, RRs spent big bucks on passenger cars and wanted to keep their investment in good shape.
(and cinders from the stack tended to not set metal on fire)

Look up Yahoo Groups, EarlyRail; vandtmodelers1869; spcrr (South Pacific Coast); and, Civil_War_RRs; people there will and do know. Are several museum staffers, restorers, and authors amongst them.

This book is a very good resource.
The American railroad passenger car
Johns Hopkins University Press, Mar 1, 1985 - Transportation - 704 pages
“This Two book set explains the methods of construction of wood, steel, and aluminum cars with clarity and precision. White traces the evolution of wheels and brakes, dining cars and sleeping compartments. And he follows the revolutions in taste and technology that dramatically altered the appearance of the railroad car over the century and a half that it dominated American travel.”
http://books.google.com/books/about/The_American_railroad_passenger_car.html?id=X30bAQAAMAAJ
for ease, following publication details copied from Amazon listing
"Product Details

Paperback: 704 pages
Publisher: The Johns Hopkins University Press (March 1, 1985)
Language: English
ISBN-10: 0801827434
ISBN-13: 978-0801827433
Product Dimensions: 12.6 x 10.5 x 1.8 inches
Shipping Weight: 6.4 pounds"
#9
Quote:
This book is a very good resource. The American railroad passenger car
I took my copy down and looked up 'roof' but White is fairly silent on the subject. There is a reference in a car order he reproduces to a 'canvas roof, painted and sanded" and a modern steel car with a wooden roof covered in copper.

My understanding is that the roof was usually canvas liberally painted with something to make it waterproof.

#10

[b]Wouldn’t they use the same technology for Passenger Car roofs as was extant for stationary, flat roofs, i.e. roofer’s felt covered with tar or asphalt?

I suppose that metal roofs were tried, but, being inflexible, they probably failed sooner rather than later.

The above is pure speculation, as I can’t find anything to back it up, but it makes sense to me.[/b]

The Heritage Trolley Museum hints that wooden passenger cars were covered with painted canvas.

The Pacific Coast Narrow Gauge site addresses several solutions that were tried.

Here is an interesting website, Builders of Wooden Railway Cars that covers (pun intended) all manner of RR roofs.

#11
Pete Thornton said:
I took my copy down and looked up 'roof' but White is fairly silent on the subject.
Err, that's what I get for going by memory alone instead of memory and verification.
#12

Hi, Here in the UK we used canvas on our passenger vehicles - I suspect that was because they had a single direction radius across the roof only. The canvas was laid onto a heavy layer of white lead, and another laid on top of that when itthe canvas & paint was dry. In the USA, with your clerestory roof you have multiple radii on the ends of the roof and clerestory - canvas would not lie correctly on such a surface, it was have folds of some sort in it. Pullmans had the roof and clerestory I suspect though it is difficult to see, finished with strips across the width; on the straight parts that is easy, but on the dropped (multi radius) ends not so there the strips were smaller in width, Pullman later had a simpler end but there were still multiple radii involved. Canvas I believe would not show the joins; metal being thicker would show them. The D&RG coach book (Colo. Rail Annual 25) has lots of pictures of the coach roofs most showing the joins, and they also show the clerestory roof as well the side roof have just as the Pullmans, the clerestory has them ‘end to end’ to accommodate the shape perhaps; however some coaches have them as the lower roofs! My book on Pullman coaches does not generally show any joins - did they use filler at the joins? This later falling off or did wood or coal smoke shows the join as differing colors of grime? When I was trying to find out what the covering was I was told that it was a metal - copper, and that the roof of locomotive cabs was lead - soldered between the panels. I think the copper would be thin and easily shaped (generally a single radii) and soldered together; the reason was that the roof was then protected from sparks from the loco. That I can understand so I add the strips with the joins being strips of styrene, then heavily painted, no doubt not enough but they look to be OK to my eyes. Here is the end of a small private car

(http://freightsheds.largescalecentral.com/users/peterbunce/_forumfiles/roof.jpg)

The coach on the left is a Bachmann one for interest. Now comes the question - what sort of covering did the original bogie baggage cars and RPO’s have with their ‘flat’ roof style? I guess that it would have been canvas as I am not certain the ability to make such large sheets of copper had been found? I intend (sometime!) to make such vehicles which will be a change and easier than the complicated clerestory roof coaches. Yours Peter.

#13

I wish I could find some good prototype pictures of the roof. I’m looking for something around 1920 or 1930, but never have found anything on line.

#14

I’m finding this thread very interesting. I know old cathedrals and churches were often roofed with lead sheeting, and copper was often used on the tops of steeples, wealthier city churches, public buildings, and even some homes. It lasts virtually forever. I believe the skill of soldering to be very ancient indeed, and certainly copper roofing goes back at least a couple hundred years, at least predating the railroad age. I just read Peter’s thoughtful post above; I like what he said, and I find his photograph quite convincing.

Some may not realize that the ‘white lead’ he refers to was a kind of paint, not a sheet of lead. So if I understand him correctly, he too is talking about canvas stuck on with paint then covered with more paint, akin to the old modellers’ paint-and-tissue-roofing-felt-trick.

If I were an old-time railroad owner with a substantial investment in fancy wooden parlor cars, sleepers and day coaches - the varnish - I’d want it well protected from the elements. If I could afford it - and I would be sure I could, BTW, bercause I’d have netted a mail contract! - I’d opt for a copper roof.

Whether any cars were really roofed with copper or not would be mere speculation on my part, but if that option were available, it’s what I’d prefer for sure.

#15

Hey Peter B.,

I have often wondered about the early photos of the passinger cars on the Morrison branch of the DSP&P. If you look at the photos, [they are black & white] the roofs of the cars look white in color. Is it possible that the roofs on these cars where finished with white lead paint and canvas??Anyone have any more info on the early DSP&P passinger car roofs??

Chuck

#16

@ Chuck et el… Early film emulsions had a problem recording correctly in the red spectrum of light. This could be a factor in the light color in the photos… Which is why you could use a “Red” light in the darkroom while developing the film. Early films were 'Ortho chromatic" meaning that they only saw in the “Blue” spectrum of light. As film technology grew they added the ability to see into the green spectrum and later on in the red spectrum. At that time then you had to develop the film in total darkness as it could see in the whole spectrum.

#17

From a link in Carstens’ book Slim Gauge Cars, second edition
Not much about roofs, but interesting nonetheless; and, the “the DSP&P internet discussion group at Yahoo.com” might be a place to look for roof info if group still exists.

http://www.midcontinent.org/rollingstock/CandS/dsp-passenger/dsp_fleetinfo.htm#COLOR

midcontinent.org said:
DSP&P Fleet Information An overview of what we know about the South Park’s passenger car fleet.

The following topics are covered on this page. You can click on a topic to be taken directly there or simply work your way down the page.

NUMBERING How the different owners of the fleet went about numbering them.
COLOR What color(s) they were.
BRAKES Kinds of brakes they had and when.
COUPLERS How they were hooked together.
ANALYSIS Statistical analysis of the different kinds of cars.
ROSTER Table summarizing certain data for each car.
HISTORY Putting the cars into a brief history of the road.

midcontinent.org said:
COLOR The following discussion is largely based on two sources, an exhaustive [some might say exhausting] discussion of the subject several years ago on the DSP&P internet discussion group at Yahoo.com, and more recent private communication with restoration color expert Jim Wilke. Since we claim no personal knowledge or expertise in this area, we originally wrote this article with a lot of quotations, trying to credit each authority as they were cited. But in rewriting it to add additional material we found that the information itself was becoming overpowered by the format, so it is now being presented as if we were the know-it-all expert. We’re not, and we want to thank Charlie, Jim, Ken, Richard, and anyone else who may have contributed to this article, knowingly or unknowingly. As always, if you want to clarify, correct or merely comment, please write us. We’d love to hear from you.
#18

Hey, just found this,

http://www.spec2000.net/rr_site_pages/rr_ngdsp6.htm

E. R. (Ross) Crain, P.Eng. said:
Denver, South Park and Pacific Railroad

Folio Drawings – Passenger Cars
The plans on this page are from the Colorado and Southern folio drawings, as the cars and locomotives appeared around 1901 to 1906. The drawings are useful for body dimensions and general layout, but there were many modifications between the mid 1880’s and 1916. On passenger cars, the most noticable change was the removal of open platforms on the baggage cars and baggage ends of combines. Also, duck-bill roofs were replaced by more modern styles. Window treatments don’t appear to have changed too much, but several cars were converted from coach to combine and vice versa. Research the available photos to be sure of the details.These drawings are not to scale.

The best place to see photos of the DSP&P passenger fleet in various eras is at http://www.midcontinent.org/rollingstock/CandS/dsp-passenger/dsp_fleetinfo.htm


These folks would know http://www.dspphs.org/

DSP&PHS said:
Welcome to the DSP&P Historical Society

The Denver, South Park & Pacific Historical Society was established to promote the preservation of the history and artifacts of all the predecessor lines that became the narrow gauge portion of the Colorado & Southern Railway. The Society encourages artifact and equipment acquisitions, as well as dissemination of knowledge about these railroads and their effect on the history of Colorado and the nation.

The Society encourages ongoing dialog pertinent to the history and modeling of the Denver, South Park & Pacific and related railroads via discussion group(s) on the Internet. All members are added, if they desire, to the Denver, South Park& Pacific Historical Society group, which provides a forum for discussing subjects of railroad interest.

Pictured here is a 1901 view from Davis Overlook on Boreas Pass towards Tarryall with Como in the distance.

NEW! - Check out our new calendar for 2013 in the store

#19

Thanks Forrest. This thread just keeps getting better and better…