Large Scale Central

OK, Guys, tell me we're not getting ripped off

General Discussion
#1

I just received this e-mail from a well-regarded dealer here in yUK -

Just Arrived from Aristocraft:

A84200 Undecorated Live Steam 0-4-0 Loco, follow up to the 2-8-2 Mikado. This new small-size live steamer comes in a metal carrying case, and will be fully accessorized. It includes the same built-in, ready-to-run R/C system as the Mikado and will operate on small layouts, even with a 4’ diameter curve. RRP £1105.00 Our Price £920.00.

At this minute, that £920 is $1435.00 - ‘our price’ - like it’s a bargain… : O

tac
www.ovgrs.org
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund

#2

You are not getting ripped orf.
Just ask the dealer.

Consider yourself told. :wink:

#3

The dealer is getting ripped off by the importer then…

tac
www.ovgrs.org
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund

#4

Get your passport, fly over, buy one, and put it in your carry-on… Have the TSA mistake the metal case for a bomb and the bomb squad blow it up, spend a couple nights in the steel bar hilton, while your lawyers sort it all out… try again, and maybe finally get home…

-or-

Trust somebody enough here to buy one for you here and have it shipped… IF they buy it, IF it doesn’t get lost/damaged/stolen in transit. Then still get nailed with a hefty customs/VAT bill.

-or-

Suck it up and pay the asking price.

Which sounds easiest?

#5
Terry A de C Foley said:
The dealer is getting ripped off by the importer then....

tac
www.ovgrs.org
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund


So following on logically, perhaps the importer is getting ripped off by the manufacturer.

#6

I would say it’s easier not to have live steam but that would be no escape. I talked to my dealer yesterday and both he and his dad complained to me about the price hikes from ALL the manufacturers. Amd we don’t have inflation!

#7

Mik,

Over the last four years I have purchased three locomotives and quite a number of freight cars from the United States, albeit from reputable sources. None, by the way were lost or stolen and all arrived in an unbroken state.

Of around twelve items, or so, (not including small parts) ONLY three were subject to UK Value Added Tax. (There is no customs duty payable). Two, understandably, were higher priced items such as locomotives and the third was a coal hopper. But having passed the three score and ten mark and realizing that there are no pockets in shrouds, I buy what I can afford (usually lower priced items and steer away from the big ticket ones. Even so I am regularly told, when considering another railroad item, that “don’t you have enough already”. I am sure many will be familiar with that last statement. lol.

I realize that Terry is not complaining about VAT however but UK pricing in general. However not knowing the financial intricacies involved with import/export and UK dealers mark ups I will not make any guesswork regarding how prices are decided. One think I do know - and from what I see it is no different in the States - is that there can be a very wide margin between the more competitive dealer and those who demand higher prices.

A quick perusal at three Stateside and three UK dealers will show what I mean.

USA - RLD - just below $800 ($531)
Wholesale Trains - just above $800
St. Aubin - just below $900 ($597)

UK - Garden Rail CENTRES - £885 ($1333)
Glendale Junction - £920 ($1385) *
Garden Rail Supplies - £1104 ($1663)

  • This is Terrys nearest dealer and all prices were taken on the internet in the last 10 minutes and currency conversions at todays bank rate. I suspect the higher priced dealers may offer price incentives. I don’t know.

Suffice to say that I do not run live steam and would have a task justifying the expense to the ‘management’ lol

So far everyone has been blamed except those who actually produce the goods. Give it time… lol

#8

Alan.
The US prices are alway pre tax, if any tax is indeed payable.

Do your UK prices include VAT?

#9

It does seem that you guys pay a lot more for things. I’ve always wondered if that’s the VAT hiding in the price. In US, we like to know what we’re paying in tax, well, maybe not

(http://www.outsidetrains.com/smile/66.gif)

#10
TonyWalsham said:
Alan. The US prices are alway pre tax, if any tax is indeed payable.

Do your UK prices include VAT?


Yes they do Tony, in this instance. But not all UK retail prices show VAT. The ones who often supply traders - usually don’t because the tax is a deductible kind: actually it ends up being passed (as it progressively increases as the item passes through others hands) to the end payer who is usually ‘Joe Public’ aaaargh!
Hence, Value Added!!!

#11

I never understood why they call it a “Value Added Tax”. A tax adds nothing to the value of the merchandise.

#12

Ray, in the hypotetical case of 10% VAT:
a manufacturer sells an item for 100 plus 10 tax. he gives goverment 10.
the dealer pays 110, and resells for 120 plus 10% tax. = 132. the accumulated tax is 12. but the dealer can deduct the tax he payed, when he bought from the manufacturer. so he only pays a real 2 to the goverment. (the tax for the “value”, he added)
Joe Customer pays everything. the 100 for the item, the 20 for cost and profit of the dealer plus 10 and 2 for the gouvermafia.
so as you like, he either pays 120 plus 12 VAT, or he plays 132 VAT included.
that is the simplified system.
(in reality the manufacturer can deduct the VAT from materials, electricity, transport etc. too)
.

#13

Some in the US are looking at a VAT tax, all they would do is spend it and more, as they do now on useless stuff/programs. Say NO to anyone wanting to add that in. I see the UK is looking at raising it’s VAT tax, surprise!

#14

concerning taxes i am verymuch believing in the bible.
the tentht part should be enough for any kind of gouverment. (but they don’t believe me!)

#15

Please do NOT use the term TSA on this site! I feel that it is a subversive organization run by our (US) government. I have had a total right knee replacement I tell them and show them the card I got from the doc and they still do a near body cavity search! So I will no longer fly any where, if I can not drive I will not go, period! This how they treat a American how has over 20 years of service to defend these A_ ____S! Just dont need it in my life.

Paul

#16

Thanks Alan.

In that case to make a fair match in the price comparison, you should deduct the VAT component from the UK prices you quoted.

I have always believed that the USA way of showing a base price to which is added any applicable tax is the most honest and open way of doing it.
The UK, like us here in Australia usually buries the tax in the total retail price.
By law dealers here must only show the total.
However, they must also show the actual amount of GST (VAT), but that can be anywhere on the sales slip and in any size print. Often it is barely visible and rarely in sequence after the actual purchase price pre-tax.

#17

One think I do know - and from what I see it is no different in the States - is that there can be a very wide margin between the more competitive dealer and those who demand higher prices.

A quick perusal at three Stateside and three UK dealers will show what I mean.

USA - RLD - just below $800 ($531)
Wholesale Trains - just above $800
St. Aubin - just below $900 ($597)

UK - Garden Rail CENTRES - £885 ($1333)
Glendale Junction - £920 ($1385) *
Garden Rail Supplies - £1104 ($1663)

                       ================================================

Hi Tony, maybe I could have but my intention was to show how prices vary from dealer to dealer besides which I would have to do some mathematics - which, all said and done, is not one of my best subjects. lol

Needless to say, with the advantage of the internet, I have usually been able to find the best deal.

#18

I don’t know how it works with train stuff, but in another life I sold US made software into the UK. Our UK dealers would take the USA List price and double it for the UK sales price. They, of course, paid no where near list for the software but did absorb the VAT. I dare say they made more margin on our product in the UK, even after deducting their cost of VAT, than the US dealers did. When I questioned this pricing model their argument was that it costs much more to do business in the UK than in the USA.

#19

Yup, Jon - the usual deal here seems to be pounds for dollars plus a bit for old times sake to round it up. An Aristocraft Dash 9 loco is currenlty AVERAGING £379.00 - $591.00.

I like to get a bit of bitching off my chest every now and then, usually it happens after I come back here after a long vacation in CN or USA. Even a Starbucks simulated coffee substitute costs around $7.00 here…good job I don’t go there, eh?

tac
www.ovgrs.org
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund