Large Scale Central

NEWBIE? Hook 'n Loop until...?

Problem Solving
#1

New to the hobby?

This is experience speaking.

Changing out your couplers? Wait until you have your layout FULLY up and running. That’s with the track level, the curves not on two different angles, the turnouts operating and…everyone who likes to watch it run sees it doing so without your constant attention to derailed rolling stock. The converse is while you were building your layout, you changed out the mfg.'s couplers for something realistic. You made a decision to change those pesky, unattractive, non-realistic, absolutely reliable, hook 'n loop couplers for the KADEE realistic work-of-art couplers. Yes, they cost a buck, but, they look sooo good.

What’s the point? I did it. While I was building the rail line, I spent some time with the rolling stock sitting at the ready on my shelves and installed the KADEES. Not good. The KADEE brand couplers are just realistically fussy. They will dump a load of cars on a curve that has a slight bank that the hook 'n loops wouldn’t flinch. That hook just slides around on both connected cars safely avoiding every goof you made in the track work. The KADEES are much less facilitative.

Here’s an idea. Borrow some rolling stock equipped with the KADEE works of art and try them out on your layout. Do it first.

Welcome aboard!

Wendell

#2

Interesting notion Wendell. I still very much consider myself a newbie since I am just now acquiring rolling stock with something other than what I am building with link and pin. And I have no layout but hope to build one, or at least start on one, next summer. The desiel I acquired has no mounted couplers but came with kadees to install. I just got an aristo car that has their knuckle coupler installed but did come with a package of hook and loop.

While I most definitely get what your saying and if I was to run only on my track once built I would agree with your logic. Get something running and then fine tune as you go and eventually switch to Kadee should you desire to do so once the track work is acceptable. I think that’s the point your making. But I offer this question, will you run on someone else’s track in an operating session, like a local club? I only say this because then you would need to be able to hook to other peoples equipment

Just another thought from a newbie Perspective

#3

Wendell,

I took off the Deltons and put on Aristo’s, is that wrong?

John

#4

At the risk of sounding contrary, I’ve always maintained that if you want problem-free operations on your railroad, start with your track. Build it on a solid foundation. Keep the transitions between grades and curves as smooth and even as possible. Make sure your track doesn’t twist. If you need to rely on uber-deep flanges or double-hooked hook-and-loop couplers to keep your trains on your track, you’re doing it backwards.

I’ve got nothing against hook-and-look couplers from an operational standpoint, but I think a reliance on them gives modelers a false sense of security. Because they’re so reliable over the worst track, they don’t provide the incentive to learn how to lay your track properly. It’s like a car with a good suspension; just because you don’t feel the bumps in the road doesn’t mean they’re not there. Would it not be a whole lot better to fill in the potholes?

I’ve run Kadee #1 scale couplers on my trains for 30 years. I’ve had failures and uncouplings. They’ve been attributed to one of two causes: poor mounting or poor trackwork. Once those issues are resolved, they’re very reliable. Yes, it means I spend more time making sure my track is well-maintained. If you ask me, that’s all part of the deal. The prototypes do it; I do it. I’ve pulled and re-laid 20’ lengths of track to fix a problematic hump or twist. Once it’s fixed, I can run day-and-night and not worry about derailments.

It’s not hard to look down a length of track and see the dips and humps. A small torpedo level (heck, even your iPhone has a level!) will let you see side-to-side twists very easily. I’ve got a locomotive which is particularly rigid over its wheelbase. It’s my “canary in a coal mine” locomotive. I run that around every Spring to find problem spots. Once they’re identified, I re-work the track so it’s even and the locomotive can run through without issue. If you don’t have a locomotive like that, take a freight car and tighten the trucks onto the bolsters so they can only swivel around the mounting screw, but not rock side-to-side or up and down. That’ll find your twists, dips, and humps in a hurry.

Sorry to get a bit preachy, but this is one of those topics that comes up from time to time as folks get frustrated with how their trains run. When I see railroads with roller-coaster grades, twists, and “S” curves at the tops of hills, it’s little wonder nothing runs right. A little extra care and attention when laying the track would eliminate virtually all of those woes.

Later,

K

#5

I also see your point Wendell, but I have to agree with Kevin. Compensating for poor track work with them oversized, latch things, is simply covering up a problem. If the track is bad enough to uncouple cars, then it won’t be long before it deteriorates enough to derail trains. With properly laid and maintained track, trains can, and should, run for hours without issue.

I too have an acid test car. One of my Aristo streamline passenger cars will find any flaw in my trackwork. I use that car to test my track. If it can run in its train for a couple of hours, problem free, then anything else I own will run problem free too.

#6

Hook and loops can compensate for poor track, but even if your couplers stay together, if you have poor trackwork, you will have limited/poor running, derailments, limitations on running, etc.

Part of this is a matter of priorities, but I maintain that you build from your foundation up, and get the trackwork really good to begin with.

The following is an extreme example, but using hook and loop as a crutch to mask trackwork problems, will not help how the trains roll on uneven track.

Greg

#7

Kevin, David, and Greg are on-target: There is no replacement for taking the time, and energy, to create level, correctly installed, and reliable track work that is not dependent on the couplers chosen. For me, Kevin is not “sounding contrary” (see above) but realistic.

My message is don’t have expectations you may not have thought of. The KADEE brand couplers will expose track construction that you won’t be aware of with the hook 'n loop couplers. Don’t make the conversions expecting your track work to accommodate - it won’t.

As far as Aristos vs. Deltons, I don’t have any comparison data. I have the Aristos expose track problems that remained hidden with the hook 'n loops.

In conclusion, BEFORE you convert all of your rolling stock to be authentic in the coupling department, run two “test cars” hooked up with KADEES - similar to David’s excellent idea above - and see if you are satisfied with that car’s operation and any track requirements it exposes.

#8

The Aristo couplers have a “shelf” on the bottom of the knuckle that keeps couplers from overriding… this is the source of strong loyalty to them in many cases.

Unfortunately it can mask trackwork problems, but not everyone wants to, or is capable of, making nice smooth trackwork.

Greg

#9

As one who is both starting to deal with rolling stock and replacing couplers and getting closer to at least think more serious about laying track I appreciate this conversation and am learning. I can see the logic of Greg and others including Wendell that starting with perfect or as close as one can get to perfect track work is invaluable. Greg stated starting with a good foundation is always best. I take that advice to heart. I can see where track work is not the place to rush it.

#10

Greg, maybe. But I think that most anyone can make good trackwork if they wanted to. Just my opinion. What I do see in my HO clubs is poor trackwork simply for lack of knowledge, and not paying attention to details. I think if folks who don’t know how, would do a little research, they could do a lot better. There was a book about proper track planning that I learned a lot from. It was written for HO modelers, but the rules apply to any scale. Unfortunately, at this moment, I don’t remember it’s title.

#11

My 2 cents worth is that three things are essential for good operation. First is track, as others have said. And if not done right, correcting the faults can be more work that laying the track in the first place. Track is an example of good enough, isn’t. Second is good power. If track power is used on long layouts, busses along the track with adequate jumpers to the rails are beneficial. The more track, the more important the busses and jumpers are, and the more trouble to correct deficiencies. Good power is also needed for battery operation, but the issues are different. Someone with battery experience might want to elaborate. Live steam folks also need good power, but live steam has its own set of issues. Third is good smooth running locomotives, whether track power, battery power, or steam. If any of these three things are missing, operation will be frustrating. I hope my comments aren’t considered hijacking the thread, but if newbies read, they may benefit.

#12

Bill yes, but all too often the newbie will rush through the track and wiring (if track powered) and get right into running trains. Then when the trains don’t run, they blame that ____ locomotive or that ____ car. All too often I try and stress the need to get the subroadbed, roadbed, track and wiring right, right out of the gate, to folks on the HO site I also haunt. Then when things don’t work, I end up in email conversations trying to hash out what went wrong.

Track-work is the foundation of your railroad. If its done right, you can run trains on it for the life of the railroad without problems. Now us outdoor guys have to do more track maintenance then the indoor guys do, but if you start with poorly laid track, or a flawed track plan (like S curves), then you will have frustrations for the life of the railroad. And it will probably be a short life too.

Back to the original thought, using hook and loop couplers to have reliable running. I think, and it has been said by others too, that using them just to keep the trains running, is treating the symptom and not the cause of the problem. If cars uncouple, then there is a reason why. Figure out and fix that, and you can use most any coupler that you want. I went with the G KaDee couplers because they would be more forgiving of my less then class 1 track-work. I admit that mine isn’t to mainline standards, but, I can set out a train and have it run all afternoon without issues due to the track.

Another point, many times when cars uncouple, uncommanded, its due to the couplers not being at the same height. So use a height gauge to get them all as close to the same height above the rails as you can. Also make sure they swing side to side freely, springing back to the center, and make sure they don’t have any vertical play in them.

I had issue with my K-Line reefer when I first bought it. It had cheap plastic wheels on metal axles without any kind of spacer to help hold the wheels in gauge. I set the wheels to gauge, and after a few runs around the railroad the car would uncouple or derail. The cheep wheels were moving out of gauge and causing the car to ride up in the switches and uncouple or derail. So another thing is, you want good quality wheels that will stay in gauge.

#13

David, I agree with all you said. And I did say that if newbies read, they might benefit. Those with experience know all that, and more. But I firmly believe that the three things I mentioned are essential for good operation. Some of what I said comes from the brief time I worked in a hobby shop. People bought the cheapest engines and power packs then were disappointed that there trains didn’t run smoothly. I tried to explain that it was unrealistic to expect the same quality of everything in a $50 train set they would get with a Proto 2000 HO locomotive. Many just never understood. I got a lot of blank looks. As far as power, more than once I heard that replacing that cheezy little train set power pack with a good one made a world of difference. A friend of mine with a nice G indoor layout had his power pack fail and I recommended he get a Bridgewerks. He did and said his locomotives, all LGB, ran much better and smoother. He was amazed at the difference. As far as trackwork, yes getting it well supported is important. It’s not enough to get it smooth and properly done if it will soon shift when trains are run. But those with experience, often gained the hard way, know that too. As far as newbies rushing to get trains running, I was guilty of that. After 20 years in the hobby, I was a newbie with 6 months experience repeated 40 times. Yes, those who have been in the hobby a while know that one very popular brand of switches often come new with loose screws, rail and frog heights that don’t match, questionable gauge, and bad flange groove depth, but I didn’t know that until building my second layout. The first was only continuous loops.

As far as couplers, I converted to LGB knuckles and liked them. I never used a height gauge, just checked them against cars already converted. That worked for me.

As to the K-Line car with lousy wheel/axles, one bad car doesn’t keep you from running trains. You just don’t run that one car until you get it fixed.

I hope we’re still friends, David

#14

I chose the Aristo’s because they are smaller than the Deltons. Delton went with the over sized ones because the Rio Grande narrow gauge used Standard Ga. couplers. They looked big vs. the smaller 3/4 size Janeys found on most narrow ga. roads. I willfully chose to go with 1:24, oh the shame… (http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-wink.gif)This is my fun, let’s get the kids involved railroad. When I need to count rivets, I have O-nThree and they had better keep their dirty little fing… um er uh, no can’t/won’t go there.

I think track work is an art form. Personally I dislike the rail clamps and only use them when I must. I can remove both screws and slide the joiner to one side to lift track. I have cut track to fit and stripped the holes, clamps do have their place, but in the 1890s we didn’t bury the rail, just the center. On a trestle - hate it!

I’ve hand laid code 70 for my On3 with scale flanges. From what I’ve seen on youTube our trains are mighty forgiving.

Below there is only one slight kink in the track work, where the branch to the engine house dips. Being on the tangent leg there are not derailings. I like my main line smooth and the branches to show slight irregularities. That engine house lead was made from too tight 8’D curves, opened on my belly, 2 at a time …

I’m kinda proud of the flow and this is all sectional track because that’s all my store carried. The track upper right goes to my car barn, I only transport my locos.

The shadow source on left is gone now…

John

#15

John, I love the look of your RR and would sure like more pics. At one point, I was considering going to Aristo couplers when LGB was belly up, but then LGB couplers became available again so I stayed with them. Glad the Aristos are working for you. Can you still get them?

#16

I’ve been using Kadee’s on my rolling stock for years now and they perform great every time . After years of frost heaves my track is far from level . But I kinda like it that way. I’ve noticed that the track should be as level as possible railhead to railhead and avoid any twists . The benefits to me are you can back long trains much more reliably cuz the’re body mounted and the fun of taking out the slack in the train is a bonus , plus they look better. I use Kadee 830’s and not the smaller 820’s . I had some problems with the 820’s holding together on long trains . Also use the Kadee height gauge and set all your stuff to the same spec’s. Once I started using them I never looked back.

#17

Bill of course we are still friends. I wasn’t trying to nay say anything you posted, I was just trying to expand on it, and the point of the thread. As for the “you get what you pay for”, all too often in the hobby, and in life, people don’t get it. (http://largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-undecided.gif)

Those of us who came from the smaller scales tend to have a better understanding of the need for good track-work. I did say tend, because its not always true. And many of us learned the hard way, unless we had a mentor. That is why sites like this can be real helpful to those just starting out. Too many folks starting out, are afraid of asking a “dumb question”. The questions are not dumb, if you do not know the answer. So I do hope this thread is read by, and helps, some folks who are starting out.

I understand the unsightliness of raill-clamps. But rail joiners are also not prototypical neither. Nor are over-sized couplers, nor the cavernous space between our rail cars. But these are compromises we (I) make to have a reliably running railroad.

And as for the K-line reefer I mentioned. After it was upgraded to metal wheels, and KaDee couplers, it runs as well as any of my other cars. I ran it “stock” when I was just starting out, and had not yet purchased enough metal wheels to upgrade my fleet. Also, at the time, I had not made a choice on couplers. Shortly thereafter, I discovered KaDee made couplers for our gauge (notice I didn’t say scale), and when I found that out, my choice was made. KaDees made a world of difference to my N scale trains, back when I was in N scale, and KaDee still made N scale couplers.

#18

A lot of good thoughts and experiences shared in this thread. If you contemplate converting to Kadee couplers in the future, just make sure you purchase a pair, every time you buy a car; that way you will never be in the poition of having a hundred cars, and face the price of a hundred pairs of Kadee couplers, all at once…and YES…be sure to purchase a Kadee coupler gauge…yes you can make your own, but the Kadee gauge; when you fully appreciate it, gives you a tool for aiding in body mounting, that alone is worth the price of the gauge.

#19

the Kadee gauge; when you fully appreciate it, gives you a tool for aiding in body mounting, that alone is worth the price of the gauge.

I also use it to check wheel spacing …

#20

Fred, I buy my Kadees in bunches when I find them on sale, that way I have a stockpile for future needs.

Sean, I made my own gauge, to specs I found online. The KaDee gauge and mine are not to the same specs.