Ok, this is gonna sound kinda weird, but bear with me here. While watching PBS film on WW II and Nazi Germany, they portrayed the German soldiers gathering up the Jews and literally stuffing them into what I would call “cattle cars”. These cars made up what they refered to as Death Camp Trains. They were pulled by steam engines. Black with red running gear I believe. Unfortunately they only gave a head-on shot of the locomotive so I wasn’t able to see the wheel arrangement.
While I was watching this documentary, all sorts of ideas were bouncing around in my head. Like, I wonder if anyone produces locos, and/or rolling stock that could be used to recreate one of these odd pieces of history?
I’d be interested to find any info on this subject. The scale I model is G (natually).
Thanks in advance,
Mike.
Mike Helphinstine said:I am Jewish.
Ok, this is gonna sound kinda weird, but bear with me here. While watching PBS film on WW II and Nazi Germany, they portrayed the German soldiers gathering up the Jews and literally stuffing them into what I would call "cattle cars". These cars made up what they refered to as Death Camp Trains. They were pulled by steam engines. Black with red running gear I believe. Unfortunately they only gave a head-on shot of the locomotive so I wasn't able to see the wheel arrangement. While I was watching this documentary, all sorts of ideas were bouncing around in my head. Like, I wonder if anyone produces locos, and/or rolling stock that could be used to recreate one of these odd pieces of history? I'd be interested to find any info on this subject. The scale I model is G (natually). Thanks in advance, Mike.
I find your idea of recreating a a model of a trainload of Jewish men, women and children being taken to be gassed deeply offensive.
What next? Miniature ovens?
tac
Ottawa Valley GRS
I’m not Jewish, I’m Armenian. We suffered a horrific genocide ourselves, the Turks actually came closer to wiping out all the Armenians than the Nazi’s did to the Jews.
I would have a hard time not thinking about history even if the locomotive was interesting.
But to each his own. Just don’t mention the history of the loco to your visitors.
Regards, Greg
Although I am not Jewish I agree with TAC. Any display of such tasteless material is also deeply offensive to me.
I don’t know whether or not they are still being made, but, at the Nuremberg Toy Fair in 1992, if you knew which stand to visit, and you had the contacts to go behind the “wall”, so to speak, you could view a whole range of “G” scale locos and rolling stock painted up in camouflage and Swastikas etc.
Some years ago a well known LS retailer in the USA had a consist of such loco and cars in a show case for sale on consignment.
A certain well know “G” scale manufacturer took humbrage and threatened to sue said USA retail dealer for promoting Nazism.
I don’t know what, if anything, happened with the case, but, I had in my possession a catalogue issued by the aforementioned Nuremberg Toy Fair exhibitor of his non Nazi stuff, in which was a model of a WW2 3 wheel delivery van emblazoned with a German Post Office logo with the Swastika as part of the artwork. Said catalogue proudly stated *** compatible alongside the *** logo/trademark.
I believe the catalogue I had was going to be offered in evidence that *** were being somewhat hypocritical.
I too find the idea disturbing. The only possible exception might be a model for use as part of a historic museum display. Even then, it would probably be better for a museum to stick with photos to depict that heinous era.
I guess I have to ask the question, “Why would you want to?”
I am hoping that you asked the question out of innocent curiosity, but still…
This is a very touchy subject, and I have to agree with most of the others that I find it tasteless…and especially the way the topic was headed.
But on the other hand I also know that there are a lot of military modelers that model nazi German military dioramas. Why, I don’t know and won’t speculate. I also know that many computer based flight sims have WWII German and Japanese aircraft which can be flown in combat situations against allied aircraft. I find that to be very unpatriotic, but I can’t deny that it’s there. There has to be enough interest in those areas or the model manufacturers and computer games writers would not produce the products. 
There was also a link to a site posted on another forum about a year or so ago where some guy modeled a nazi military scene with a locomotive in about 1" scale.
Warren - I would be willing to bet my pension that there are no ‘fun’ toy trains depicting death camp trains and layouts.
In spite of the professed ignorance of the original poster, whose name I have forgotten, I find it VERY odd indeed that he can’t find images depicting the trains he obviously wants to play with. I did a search and found 13,131,899 hits in less than 0.8 of a second.
Sadly, Preiser do not seem to list ‘mixed Jews in packed standing positions’ among their otherwise large range of model figures. He’ll have to make his own.
I’m sure such people will find a way. They always have done before.
tac
Ottawa Valley GRS
Enough already.
I’ve been thinking. Free speech and all that, right?
Well, folks, friends and others, THIS is MY free speech.
If Mr Nazi-lover, the death-camp train poster, doesn’t pull his appalling first post, I’m gone for good.
If he does, then I will pull all my successive posts, and I’ll not refer to it again.
tac
Ottawa Valley GRS
From a purely historical perspective, the Nazis used whatever they had available for those trains. In many cases they were stock cars or box cars. There’s one at the Holocaust museum in Washington DC that really gives you an idea of how cramped and inhuman the cars were. Any of LGB’s small box cars would be similar to what was used. The locos could have been of any wheel arrangement. Black with red frames is typical of German locomotives, though I don’t know what or if there was a particular reason for that.
Recreating such a train is–as has been stated–a touchy subject. Make no mistake, the Holocaust defies description in terms of human tragedy–though it is (sadly) hardly alone. Still, we do ourselves no favors by ignoring it. For me personally, it’s all in the presentation. We’ve got a club member out here in Denver who has a very extensive collection of German military models. His railroad is set in WWII Germany, and depicts a number of battle scenes. Talking to him, one gets a fascinating lesson in German military tactics, technology, and history. Everything on the railroad is well-researched and accurate. The key to the railroad’s success is that nothing is glorified or vilified. It’s offered as a moving snapshot of what was. (He does not have a model of such a train, nor is that aspect of Nazi Germany even acknowledged.)
The difficulty comes in drawing the line between simply recreating what was and “glorifying” it. The line cannot be drawn, as it’s solely based on individual perception. For instance, I built a model of the Enola Gay as a child. Am I simply building a model of a famous plane, or am I glorifying the bombing of Hiroshima. Is it “the plane that ended the war” or is it “the plane that killed 100,000 Japanese in an instant?” For each of us, it’s something different. (The Smithsonian wrestled with this same question when restoring the plane.) A model of a Nazi train would be subject to the same individual interpretation. Is it a reflection of what was, or is it a glorification of hatred? Another example a bit closer to home: I build a model of a passenger station. Over one door, I put a sign that reads “Whites Only.” Am I accurately depicting a period of time, or am I a racist? No one can answer these questions for anyone else, but as modelers, we need to take others’ sensitivities into account–at least when sharing our models. You can build whatever floats your boat. But know your audience when you raise the curtain.
Later,
K
HOLY CRAP!
I’ve gotten more email about this thread than any other [insert LS manufacturer here] bashing thread. Everyone step back and take a deep breath.
I agree with Kevin’s assessment of the situation, this is a flamepoint for majorly offending people. Everyone relax.
Please delete the thread, Bob.
This a situation where censorship doesn’t bother me at all, it is needed!
jb
Good idea… don’t just lock it, delete it.
Regards, Greg
Yeah, make it go away. this is the original poster’s only post. I don’t think it will be missed.
Mike Helphinstine said:Mike,
Ok, this is gonna sound kinda weird, but bear with me here. While watching PBS film on WW II and Nazi Germany, they portrayed the German soldiers gathering up the Jews and literally stuffing them into what I would call "cattle cars". These cars made up what they refered to as Death Camp Trains. They were pulled by steam engines. Black with red running gear I believe. Unfortunately they only gave a head-on shot of the locomotive so I wasn't able to see the wheel arrangement. While I was watching this documentary, all sorts of ideas were bouncing around in my head. Like, I wonder if anyone produces locos, and/or rolling stock that could be used to recreate one of these odd pieces of history? I'd be interested to find any info on this subject. The scale I model is G (natually). Thanks in advance, Mike.
Strange project!
But if you’re looking for materials that are suitable check out the Märklin #1 Gauge line, runs on 45mm track but is decidely not “G” scale , but 1:32.
For your purposes that means you’ll find lots of military stuff that goes with it.
Strange project!
PS Always puzzles me why people would want to replicate the most miserable instances in history.
Dear Mr Moderator - since you do not appear to be taking this thread seriously, and removing it in its loathsome entirety, I am taking myself off instead.
The modern-day nazi and his helpful friend who has offered assistance in this appalling venture may continue to speculate how to best make models of it at their leisure.
Ohne mich, as we say.
Thank you, all, and good bye.
Terry A de C Foley
Workin on it… right now I have to go through the database and manually delete each entry…