Large Scale Central

"Nation of Cowards"

This seemed to be one of the major topics of the Sunday Morning talking heads. What have you done for race relations today? Our “black attorney general” (*) appointed by our black president in black history month says that we are a “Nation of Cowards” and we seperate to our “own people” on weekends. I wouldn’t mind having a personal conversation with him. I have a few viewpoints I’d like to express to him. :wink: He didn’t call and hasn’t stopped by, but I guess that is my fault. I’m sorry.

Shoke hands with a non-caucasian female named Sonya at the marina this morning. She is the only non-caucasian I’ve seen today. Looked to be East Indian, Mexican or Polynesian or something. We didn’t discuss her race. Pleasant lady. She was at a Yacht Club party last night and then stayed over at a local hotel before heading back to Springfield this morning with a club member. He’s caucasian, so maybe they worked on racial relations. I don’t know and didn’t think it was my position to ask, but I guess that is my fault. I’m sorry.

I don’t know if “Nation of Cowards” was the proper term to use. However, I guess our “black attorney general” (*) must know best. I sometimes just might not agree with everything I’m told to think and I guess that is my fault, also. I’m sorry.

    • “black attorney general” - the term used by national news media to describe the attorney general.

Just wondering, when is Asian History Month? Who runs the United Caucasian College Fund? Which Congressperson is president of the Congressional White Caucus? Is black on red crime considered a hate crime?

Since spending 8 years in the US Army with men from all over, I honestly do not have any particular biases in regard to race, nationality, religion, sexual perversions, etc. I am bigoted against people that act like assholes. No specific names come to mind right now, but you know who you are. :wink:

I would not have used the word “coward” but it seems that you are partly making his point in that you think the idea that we need to consider the history of race in the US is problematic. In that, sense, aren’t you making his point? Not the "coward"point, which is again not language I would have used, but the point about unwillingness to talk about or “make an issue of” race? It seems to me that black people have done a lot of hidden work for the US in then sense that it’s the presence of black people in the US that allowed ethnic immigrants, like Irish or Italians, or Jews, to be be seen as simply “white.” Here’s a drawing of an irishman in Congress, by Thomas Nast

(http://chnm.gmu.edu/courses/omalley/120/alien/3.jpg)

Irish people were originally regarded as non-white, believe it or not, by many Americans–check this out: http://chnm.gmu.edu/courses/omalley/120/alien/five.html That’s my great great grandfather, born in Galway, listed by the state of VA as “colored” in 1884 Most white Americans are unaware of how they got to be “white” and stopped being what they were in Europe. The role that race played in that change IS, it seems to me, generally unacknowledged ad not part of our sense of ourselves as a nation

David Hill said:
Just wondering, when is Asian History Month?
It's May: http://www.infoplease.com/spot/asianhistory1.html
David Hill said:
Who runs the United Caucasian College Fund? Which Congressperson is president of the Congressional White Caucus? Is black on red crime considered a hate crime?
Yes, black on red crime is considered a hate crime, absolutely.

There are a number of college funds set up around various ethnic group.

Here’s the Irish American Scholarship fund: http://www.irishsummerfest.org/html/scholar.html .
Here are some Jewish scholarships: http://www.collegescholarships.org/scholarships/jewish-students.htm.
Here’s the National Italian American Scholarship fund: http://www.niaf.org/scholarships/index.asp

There are funds for Irish guys, for Jewish kids, for Greeks and Poles. There are whole university systems set up for Catholics. And if you consider that nearly ALL American colleges and universities were segregated and did not admit African Americans into the 20th century, then your question is considerably less cute.

It’s interesting that starting in the 1890s and lasting until the 1960s, African Americans were simply unable to vote in the South. And yet you seem to be arguing that it is black people who made this special interest. Having been systematically forced into segregation, they are now guilty of…forming themselves into a separate group?

The Congressional black Caucus is an interest group. There are a number of interest group caucuses. There is an “Allies of Israel” caucus. The is the Congressional Prayer Caucus. I doubt very much you object to that, but I have to wonder, where is the “congressional no prayer caucus?” Or is it ok for praying christians to form a caucus, but not black people? Any group that perceives itself to have a particular unifying interest can form a caucus.

There used to be a congressional white caucus, organized in the 50s around the idea of “massive resistance” to integration. At that tiem, there was only one black congressman, so he could not have formed a caucus. I wonder why that was?

But any number of congress people could form a congressional white caucus if they wanted. That no one is so foolish as to do so suggests that maybe Holder is wrong

I wish they would start that Congressional Agnostic’s caucus, but Im not holding my breath.

I honestly don’t believe that anything in this country will change much, until we start calling the people in America, Americans… With the exception of the American Indians, everyone in this country has arrived from some other place, within the history of their familys, and the history of this country…

Once you affix a prefix in front of Americans, you start separating people into categories…
Those prefixes include ""asian, black, white, indian, japaneese, korean, mexican, spanish, short, tall, fat, ugly, obese, etc., etc., etc. When there are all separated into the categories, then you have a separation of people…

Nothing is really going to change, until we learn to drop all the categories…

just my 2 cents worth…

:slight_smile:

David Hill said:
.......... I am bigoted against people that act like assholes. No specific names come to mind right now, but you know who you are. ;-)
David is at it again. He will definately say he has been insulted if anyone takes his bait. I would like to know what an 'ASShole' is though. Is it a hole dug to trap an Ass? Does it represent an anatomical part of an Ass's body? Is it like a 'black' hole and is full of Asses that suck in the entire universe? Or is it just plain full of shit? How many chances does one have to give this person?

In 1985, I had the pleasure of passing through British immigration at Manchester Airport (England). As one approached the immigration counters, there was a choice to be made. Over the counters were two signs, one marked ‘British Subjects’, the other ‘Aliens’. Although a past British colony, I decided that I should wait in the Alien que. While waiting I glanced at the line containing the British subjects. There was not one white person in the que. They all appeared African or Jamaican. Definately a spinoff result of colonisation.

Tim Brien said:
David Hill said:
.......... I am bigoted against people that act like assholes. No specific names come to mind right now, but you know who you are. ;-)
David is at it again. He will definately say he has been insulted if anyone takes his bait. I would like to know what an 'ASShole' is though. Is it a hole dug to trap an Ass? Does it represent an anatomical part of an Ass's body? Is it like a 'black' hole and is full of Asses that suck in the entire universe? Or is it just plain full of shit? How many chances does one have to give this person?
You are starting this crap again Tim? YOU go work on your train.


Everyone, including the American Indian tribes, came to this continent from someplace else.  I agree with Andy, drop all the hyphenated American designations and lets all be Americans in this country.

We were at one time "The Great Melting Pot" of the world.  Today we are more like a TV Dinner, with dividers between us.

Irish, Germans, Italians, Africans, Asians have all been persecuted by the others at some time or other.  I would think [i]courage[/i] isn't going to solve this as much as having a sense of community.

Yes, surely if freedom means anything at all, it means you cannot choose to celebrate/maintain your family’s particular history. Freedom means everyone being the same.

Mike,
an unfortunate byproduct of embracing another country, as your homeland, is that the bad elements that you left behind, quickly follow you. The crime gangs of the world all follow their countrymen, where ever they go. You can take the boy out of his culture, but you cannot take the culture out of the boy.

    As a 'modern' civilised country,  we embraced multiculturalism.  An unfortunate downside is the importation of evils that these people thought they left behind,  when seeking a better life.
David Hill said:
.........You are starting this crap again Tim? YOU go work on your train.
David, kiss my Ass.

Sorry, people, I don’t share your “white guilt”.

I don’t feel a shred of guilt–where do you see some evidence of someone expressing “white guilt?” I just want to live in an equitable world.

mike omalley said:
I don't feel a shred of guilt--where do you see some evidence of someone expressing "white guilt?" I just want to live in an equitable world.
I already do. I'll treat you as I would want to be treated. Works every time......;)

(by “You” I mean people in general, black, white, purple, green, orange…)

Children are not born racist, they are taught, by society, to be racist. Racism is not a whiteman disease, but is rampant in all cultures. To me the worst offender is the Indian caste system. A person born into a lower caste is ‘forbidden’ to rise outside his caste. Should he do so, he has to keep his lowly caste a secret. In Japan, ‘racism’ is also strong, but not just between different cultures, but an age discrimination. It is an insult for a younger person to be promoted over an older person, in the office. This often leads to the older person committing suicide for being dishonoured.

Never mind.

Mike,
Help me here.
I bring up the subject of Race. Going where the Attorney General says we are cowards and afraid to go and you come back with this reply.

"I would not have used the word “coward” but it seems that you are partly making his point in that you think the idea that we need to consider the history of race in the US is problematic. In that, sense, aren’t you making his point? Not the “coward"point, which is again not language I would have used, but the point about unwillingness to talk about or “make an issue of” race?”

How am I making his point? I wasn’t shy about making the point or afraid to bring up the subject of race.

I have to agree with AndyC, when he says - “Nothing is really going to change, until we learn to drop all the categories…”

I don’t know if I can say drop all the categories, but just ignore all the categories. I had to learn to live with being called the “freckle faced red headed kid” early in life and all the jokes that went with it. Means nothing, I didn’t use it to my advantage or disadvantage, it is just my heritage. The hair is now darker or grey/white and the freckle have given way to sunspots and tan.

So have you used your “colored” heritage to your advantage or did you become just another American like AndyC spoke of? I belileve we are a Nation of Americans and nothing else. And, thank you, I’ll share my Sunday dinner with whomever I want.

Ric, I didn’t mean that to be as accusatory as it might have sounded and I’m sorry if it seemed that way.

It seems to me that when people say “let’s all just be American” they are also saying “stop being different.” And then I have to think if freedom means anything, it surely means the right to live as you like, worship as you like, practice whatever cultural traditions you like, within reason. I mean, what else would being free mean except the right to be different, to choose to live as you like? It surely doesn’t mean that the Italian immigrant has to stop listening to opera and easting pasta, or the Mexican immigrant’s kids can’t go to a taco stand. I actually like and value the differences between people and find them interesting. So the challenge for the US, it seems to me, is not “how do we make people stop maintaining their cultural differences,” but rather “how can we set up a society where difference doesn’t get translated into the kind of prejudice that the US (sadly) showed for so long?”

You could argue that if a store chooses to speak only Spanish, it’s going to lose the business of English speakers and it should, and if you want to show up for an interview at IBM dressed in your native costume, you won’t get the job. That seems reasonable to me. But if you tell black people that they have to stop being black, and just be American, you’re in effect asking them to erase 300 years of history and culture–to erase specific family histories that were shaped by the fact of pervasive racial prejudice. Try telling someone whose ancestors were pioneers in, say, Colorado that none of that stuff matters and he should just forget about it.

Obviously there has to be some balance struck between cultivating a sense of separateness and making a coherent national culture. That, to me, is one of the challenges of living in a free society. How do you make room for people to live as they choose? It’s ALWAYS been hard.

I use the “colored ancestor” thing to point out that our modern ideas about race and what it is are not as simple as they seem. It’s hard, today, to imagine Irish people as anything but white, but that’s not how it was in the past. Look at that Nast cartoon–isn’t it weird that he drew an irish guy who looks like a back guy? It’s a very interesting way to get into the immigration debate in the present. My classroom has white kids but also a lot of Arabs, Persians, and Asian Indians. Are they white? Some say yes, some say no. They all seem to be in my class to fulfill the American dream. Can they live out that dream and not have to repudiate their family heritage? I hope so.

So that’s why I think Holder’s right that it’s worthwhile to have a “national conversation” (whatever that means) about race. It makes us better able to balance the right to live as we choose against the need for a coherent national culture we all share.

PS I had no idea about the "colored ancestor " thing till my dad retired and started doing family history about ten years ago. He discovered it, and that year we had a big family Christmas party and he blew the certificate up to poster size and then gathered everybody together to reveal it. It was very funny. That year he sent out Kwanza cards

Mike,

I embrace and celebrate my heritage (where my family came from) as much as anybody. But I am so glad that they ended up here and I give thanks for that every day. This is not a slam at anyone living anywhere else and they can be just as blessed in their part of the World. I have to go back to AndyC’s statement. Accept them and embrace that they are Americans, if they want to throw their heritage in our faces that is their business. If someone wants me to pay for what happened , that’s my business. I just feel suck it up and move on.

I’m sure that Christmas was memorable and I hope fun. If it turned into a diatribe of the shame of it all, I hope somebody changed the subject. In today’s litigated environment, I’m sure you can find a sleezy lawyer that will try to get someone to have taxpayers pay for your previous education, because of being considered a minority.

I put Kwanza in the same category as Festivus (just a Seinfeld Comedy), but if people want to seriously - celebrate it, just don’t ask me to spend my tax dollars paying for it.