Large Scale Central

Moving big stuff back in the day

General Discussion
#1

OK so this is kinda off topic but kinda not. My prototype the Coeur d’Alene Railway and Navigation Company had some interesting challenges before the coming of the all rail Oregon Railway and Navigation Company. Before the all rail line stuff was transported by rail to Coeur d’Alene then loaded onto steamers and barges, then floated up the lake to the river to Mission Landing. There it was then off loaded onto the railroad. The first challenge for the RR was to deliver the locomotives. While all the locomotives would have been delivered this way I have proof that the #4 was transported this way based on newspaper accounts. I also know from build sheets that this locomotive weighed 74,000 pounds. I have always wondered how 74,000 pounds would have been loaded and unloaded from boats. Then moved and set on rails. While I have had some speculation nothing so far has been discovered on how they did it. Its a mystery.

Now I doubt it was done this way, but watching a show on science channel, Unearthing Ancient Secrets: Engineering Ancient Rome, gave some remarkable insight on how the ancients tackled lifting very heavy stuff with nothing but human power and mechanical advantage. So the Colosseum had some stones that weighed as much as 5200 pounds and were lifted 170 feet or 15 stories high. How did they do it. well cranes, human powered cranes. A series of cranes was used that were approx 30 tall and used as many as 5 slaves to do the work. It was built with a 10’ diameter hamster wheel. Here is the only ancient carving from the area that shows how it was done.

here are some of the modern experiments that proved the technology works

scroll down to Roman cranes

The one on the show used a 10:1 wheel with a 10:1 block and tackle giving 100X lifting capacity. One 120# girl lifted a 1200# block with the ease of walking uphill. Three men lifted 5200# 4 feet high. The were mobile by just using the wheel to roll it around.

Pretty damn amazing when you realize how big and tall the Colosseum is.

#2

In Germany, I watched two guys move a 10-12,000 lbs walk in safe 60-70 feet down a second floor hallway. They jacked it up, slid 8x8x 4ft long blocks of ice under it, and the two of them just pushed it out and down the hall. The weight on the ice, left a thin layer of water between the floor and the ice, it just slid easily along.

#3

As a printer, in a large plant, I regularly moved 2 ton rolls of paper, alone. There were tricks to getting the job done…and yes, safety shoes were very much needed…!!

Straight rolling of the paper roll, was no problem, it was turning the roll to advance it in a different direction, that was a bit of a challenge. we had these cast Aluminium “Plates”, about a foot in diameter, that we rolled the paper roll onto. Balancing the roll on the plate, made it easy to turn the roll to the direction we wanted it to go.

Fred Mills

#4

A lot of our ancient buildings in Europe were mainly built using two arms and four legs. (http://largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-wink.gif)

#5

Devon, another idea, I read an account where a locomotive was driven, well, sort of, across a frozen river. When the river had frozen to the point where it would support the locomotive, temporary track was laid on the ice. Then the locomotive was steamed up and sent on its way. The engineer and fireman jumped out just before the locomotive reached the river bank, so it had to be moving slowly. The locomotive steamed across the river, and it was reported that the ice made a lot of cracking noises, but the locomotive made it to the other side, where another engineer and fireman climbed on board.

I remember reading of this many years ago, so I do not remember what type, or weight, the locomotive was, nor where this reportedly occurred.

In a similar idea to yours, the National Locomotive Works, here in Allegheny City (now Pittsburgh’s North Side) did not have any railroad tracks adjacent to the factory. So every locomotive they built had to be transported by barge to either the South Side, or to where it was going.

#6

According to Ancient Alien Theorists, heavy objects like your locomotive were beamed across the river.

#7

Well!!!,

First of David,

Not likely for the #4 as the article was dated in September and unless it was a very old fall there would be no ice. Do you have any information on how they got locomotives on and off the barge? Now one theory is that the loco was driven of the barge onto the tracks. I cry B.S. because I have photos of the landing and can drive to it today and it is little changed. No way that would happen. Steamers and barges would be parallel to the tracks and not end on or perpendicular. The prominent theory is that it was slide sideways on beams. Personally this seems the most logical though I would like to see it.

And second, Steve,

I think your theory is correct, nuff said! It is the same aliens that moved all the equipment to set up a five stamp mill very shortly after the RR was built. Some very serious equipment was moved by the rickety Narrow Gauge before the all rail days. And since aliens are not bound by OSHA laws this seems to be the only logical explanation. If a 74,000# locomotive needed to be moved from a barge to RR tracks it would take an act of congress and 15,000 different engineer firms, an oversight committee, a TV documentary crew, and Jesus to oversee operations.

Those same aliens come the day before elk season begins and beam up all the elk in N Idaho and bring them back the day after.

#8

Devon, I do not know how the National Locomotive Works put them on barges. It was something I had read in my Narrow Gauge book, but they didn’t explain the how’s.

#9

The old boys moved some mighty big/heavy loads with stiff leg derricks and other type of steam operated cranes.

#10

David Maynard said:

Devon, I do not know how the National Locomotive Works put them on barges. It was something I had read in my Narrow Gauge book, but they didn’t explain the how’s.

Yeah seems to be a trade secret. . .kinda like how you land two guys on the moon with the sum total computing power as a wrist watch. Hard to believe but they swear they did it. . .and who am I to argue. At least there are pictures of the moon landing

#11

Rick Marty said:

The old boys moved some mighty big/heavy loads with stiff leg derricks and other type of steam operated cranes.

A derrick wold be very plausible but you would think at least by 1888 there would be a decent account of that in the local newspaper. But it was a matter of fact event they talk about it being delivered by barge but no mention what so ever about how they did it. Much less a picture. Damn Journalists

#12

If a barge was used, Most likely it WAS, Pushed onto, using an idler car, and pulled off the same way. Though heavy, without water in her boiler, and possibly tender less, the weight would not be that great for a small barge. Remember that at that time, engines were much smaller then what we think of for normal. A temp set of rails could easily have been put down for the occasion. We do it for moving the 315 to and from Chama. Remember that at that time rail could easily have been 45 Lbs stuff, and half as many ties for a light engine.

#13

Note the iron stiff leg derrick near the bow…

Load it in England, New or Old and drop it off in San Pedro, a natural harbor on the southern edge of Los Angles:

We have our ways…

#14

Dave,

I certainly agree with your suggestion in general. The #4 certainly would have and could have been assisted on and off by the use of an idler car or some such other as three locomotive and various equipment was in operation by that time. But the #1 and #2 were the first locomotives in the area. The way the landing was made they likely did have temporary track that they could push them off of with the help of a team of horses or something I suppose. This landing was no harbor or pier it was a deep spot in the river with a dirt bank. There was enough room maybe with temporary track to nose the loco off.

I think your right, some sort of temporary arraignment had to be made and the locomotives pushed off. I don’t think much heavy equipment of an ykind predated the RR as all the mines were developed (especially milling facilities) after the RR.

#15

John,

That picture of them stacking locos like cord wood is cool. I doubt any such elaborate set up was used to get them off and on in my case though. But those pictures show what could have been done even if only temporary.

CDA facilities couple years later

Mission Landing

#16

Look again, they are sitting side by side on the deck of a ship.

However I do have sad shots of old equipment stacked that way.

John

#17

I imagine yours were trans loaded from ship to barge or dock, before being sent up river on the deck of a barge. What I posted above was the ocean side of the movement.

John

#18

Devon, your sign painter had the N stencil backwards!

#19

Why just a loco?

A whole train was barged to Vancouver Island…

John

#20

John, I saw that they were side by side on a ship. I didn’t say they were stacked like cord wood on the ground(http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-surprised.gif)(http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-wink.gif)

I do know they were brought in by rail on Northern Pacific to CDA. That above facility was built and in service just before they began construction of the Narrow Gauge. Same guy built both, so it is clear he had a plan of progression to get the equipment moved. So that part is no mystery the locos and other equipment came in on RR cars. Then at the pier they were loaded onto barges and hauled up the lake and river. I can see pretty easy how they could have gotten them on the barges by simply running temp tracks onto the barge. Its at the other end that would have been interesting to see how they were off loaded. I am sure it was much as Dave described and I want it to be more fancy, when in reality it likely wasn’t.

Now your last picture is very interesting. While in Rossland, B.C. a month ago doing research on the Spokane Falls and Northern and its subsidiary the Red Mountain Ry, there is a picture of basically the same thing. Before the bridge was completed across the Columbia River the regular trains were driven onto barges hauled across the river and then they continued on there way. they did this five times a week for several months until the bridge was finished.