Large Scale Central

More Highways, Less Congestion

General Discussion
#1

http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/more-highways-less-congestion_552548.html

Weekly Standard said:
[b]More Highways, Less Congestion The theory of ‘induced-demand’ fails the road test.[/b] Mar 7, 2011, Vol. 16, No. 24 • By JONATHAN V. LAST
Weekly Standard said:
Like many sects, traffic planners have their dogmata. One of their doctrines is that adding capacity to highways is futile because it merely creates more traffic. This phenomenon is called “induced demand,” or, more colloquially, “build it, and they will come.” The theory is simple: Traffic systems that suffer from -congestion have latent demand—that is, a universe of drivers who would use the freeway, but don’t, because of the traffic.
#2
weekly Standard said:
...but they had only 5 years worth of data on vehicle-miles traveled. What’s more, these numbers weren’t that solid. Nobody counted the cars on the freeways. Instead, they derived them by working backward from gasoline sales and estimating how many miles, and on what kind of roads, people probably drove.
What's that sig line I've had for several months now? Oh, yeah, [i]Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality. -- Nikola Tesla, Modern Mechanics and Inventions, July, 1934[/i]
#3

We see this phenomenon whenever they add a lane to a freeway here, once it opens there is less congestion but within a few months its right back to the same clogged condition it was before. Plus here most all the freeways are in built up urban areas, widening a freeway becomes a major political firestorm with landowners which causes the price per mile to skyrocket due to the legal fights that result. The era of freeway construction is over, time to get on with it and build a HST system where the air and highway congestion would support such an alternative.

#4

The era of freeway construction is over, time to get on with it and build a HST system where the air and highway congestion would support such an alternative.

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As a European I agree with you Victor.

But surely that is a treasonable statement in the present day United States. lol

The penalty for treason in England was to be sent to the Tower Of London: what happened to Stateside Citizens?

#5
Victor Smith said:
We see this phenomenon whenever they add a lane to a freeway here, once it opens there is less congestion but within a few months its right back to the same clogged condition it was before. Plus here most all the freeways are in built up urban areas, widening a freeway becomes a major political firestorm with landowners which causes the price per mile to skyrocket due to the legal fights that result. The era of freeway construction is over, time to get on with it and build a HST system where the air and highway congestion would support such an alternative.
Who is going to pay for it, Vic? The railroads don't want anything to do with it, passenger has always been a loss-leader or promo item for them. Gummint (both parties) would rather subsidize air and highway transportation.

Where are you going to get the money?

#6

Why would they build more roads when they claim they can’t afford to maintain the ones we already have?

Long distance Rail is going to stay at a distinct disadvantage as long as; 1. It’s all private, and therefore taxable property - rather than heavily subsidized like every other form INCLUDING highways. 2. It doesn’t offer better speed, convenience or cost to the users than those other forms.

I doubt either will happen soon. Especially when they’re trying to gut what we have in the name of balancing the budget.

#7
Alan Lott said:
The penalty for treason in England was to be sent to the Tower Of London: what happened to Stateside Citizens?
Our most famous traitor, Benedict Arnold, defected to your side, avoided prosecution and lived out his life in London :)
#8

Roads are always going to expand their use… because they are free.

Americans are sheep. If the government says “pay your taxes and we’ll give you free roads and cheaper airfare” the sheep believe it.

The first thing to do is begin taxing fuel based on vehicle being filled. A tractor-trailer should pay more since his vehicle causes a much higher fraction of the damage to the roadway. Second, cancel ALL airline subsidies. If they can’t get enough cash in the market, then obviously the market doesn’t justify the need of that many airlines.

Third, figure your head out and decide what you mean by high speed rail. 110mph direct corridor service like that offered by Amtrak’s North East Corridor? or are you looking for 2xTGV type speeds offering service to all 48 continuous states?

If you are looking for the 2xTGV, then get it through your head AND wallets that the only real answer for us is a HUGE investment, rivalling the Panama Canal, or building the ENTIRE EIH system in one big swoop. A large high-speed maglev loop around the US (dual track to offer service counter & clockwise). Amtrak oversees the construction of a 100% grade-crossing free (being 30’ in the air, hopefully tresspasser free as well.) superhighspeed line and then its operations. Each state that wants to can pay a tap-on fee to have a station/transload facility built. If they want one station in the middle, one fee. Two stations further apart? Two tap-on fees… (multiple purchase discounts could apply?) The Mag-lev cars would in fact be nothing more that glorified intermodal containers. A bit wider than a standard container, and perhaps a bit taller, they would lock into the cars. All passenger bound for Mardi Gras would board one car. Upon the mag-lev’s arrival in Louisiana, the locks are dis-engaged, and a crane would transload the car full of MargiGras-Goers onto a local train, and away they’d go. Another “People-Tainer” would be loaded on as outbound “freight” and away the maglev would go.

#9
Jason Gallaway said:
... because they are free.
Seriously disagree that roads are free.
#10
Forrest Scott Wood said:
Jason Gallaway said:
... because they are free.
Seriously disagree that roads are free.
He's talking perception. You don't pay a toll every 10 feet -- unless you're in New York on the throughway
#11

“The penalty for treason in England was to be sent to the Tower Of London: what happened to Stateside Citizens?”

You become a politician or maybe even president, then you write a book and hopefully head for Europe.

#12

Yes, I was using hyperbole to make my point.

The general populous will consider roads to be free to use because they don’t see an itemized bill for where their taxes are going. They pay “taxes” not a “Federal Highway usage fee”.

#13
Jason Gallaway said:
The first thing to do is begin taxing fuel based on vehicle being filled. A tractor-trailer should pay more since his vehicle causes a much higher fraction of the damage to the roadway.
A tractor trailer already does pay more in higher fuel costs ( check the price of diesel compared to gas and diesel is cheaper to produce than gas) and through IFTA (Interstate Fuel Tax Agreement). They pay a fuel tax going through a state based on mileage whether they buy fuel there or not.

But all those taxes just comes out of the consumer’s pocket anyway since all those charges are just added to the freight bill as part of the cost of doing business.

Besides the “American Recovery and Reinvestment Act” is paying to upgrade the roads, not the taxpayer…:wink:

#14
Steve Featherkile said:
Victor Smith said:
We see this phenomenon whenever they add a lane to a freeway here, once it opens there is less congestion but within a few months its right back to the same clogged condition it was before. Plus here most all the freeways are in built up urban areas, widening a freeway becomes a major political firestorm with landowners which causes the price per mile to skyrocket due to the legal fights that result. The era of freeway construction is over, time to get on with it and build a HST system where the air and highway congestion would support such an alternative.
Who is going to pay for it, Vic? The railroads don't want anything to do with it, passenger has always been a loss-leader or promo item for them. Gummint (both parties) would rather subsidize air and highway transportation.

Where are you going to get the money?


Its a question of priorities, whats more important? A nationally coordinated transit system that benifits the most people or 3 ‘Seawolf’ class nuclear submarines ? or 20 B2B Stealth bombers who’s job is now better done by cheap remote drones? …all are the same costs (adjusted to todays dollars) as the current Obama HST investment proposal. Personally I think its about time this country put some public benifit above defense contractor payrolls, do I think it will happen? Let me consult the Easter Bunny and I’ll get back to you on that :wink:

#15

Vic,

I agree that we don’t need any more cigar shaped coffins. It is better to spend the money on the real Navy, the Surface Navy. :stuck_out_tongue:

What did the Easter Bunny say? :lol:

Personally, I prefer to go by rail. It’s much more relaxing. My daughter lives in Vancouver, WA. It is a horrible trip by auto from Spokane. I much prefer to take the Builder, even though it leaves Spokane at the ridiculous hour of 0200.

#16

We need to build a seaQuest for the Navy and be done. Then we CAN divert funds to domestic spending.

I have answers for everything… but in the interests of community tranquility I won’t go any further… unless someone really wants to know… but trust me, you’ll regret the firestorm if you beg.

#17
Jason Gallaway said:
I have answers for everything... but in the interests of community tranquility I won't go any further.. unless someone really wants to know... but trust me, you'll regret the firestorm if you beg.
Jason, Bob won't let me call you a moron, so I won't. :lol: :)
#18

Don’t worry Jason. The older you get, the smarter your dad will get too. There ain’t a old geezer living that doesn’t wish he still knew all the stuff he knew when he was 17 :stuck_out_tongue: – except maybe Nicky, he still does.

Note to self; Try to figure out when exactly I forgot everything and became a crabby cynical olde pharte…

#19

No comment.
David

#20

Oh come on… doesn’t ANYONE feel the need for a little firestorm to burn away the kindling? :-p

Seriously, I’ll admit I THINK I have an answer for everything, but they aren’t usually fully thought out, nor would they be popular with… oh say, more than 15% of the general populous.

But, as far as I’m concerned, they work for the goals they intend to meet.