The FAA has issued a warning concerning Lithium batteries.
Ralph
'Tis what Dave and I have been saying all along.
Be very wary of them. Both Li-Ion and Li-Poly.
My battery supplier will sell the former but will not touch the latter.
It would be better if battery pack makers would quit using cheap, junk Chineez cells.
Only the best, UL listed, cells should be used.
What is in the new Chevy Volt? Lithium, of course.
And the Tesla roadster.
Only time will tell, when the electric cars start to burn, I guess.
I’m about to purchase my first set of dedicated batteries for train use. I’m torn between Li-Ion and Ni-Mh or just plain old NiCd. I really like the size and the fact that the Lithium cells hold their charge, but the cost and charging issues may keep me away.
Personally, I am comfortable with Lithium-Ion batteries. I have been using them for several years now. The 18650 cells I purchase from All-Battery.com for my own use, are the same cells used in my laptop computer. As long as I use the charger that is specifically recommended for use with the battery pack I purchase. I think they are safe to use. I like them because they are smaller and lighter weight than NiMh. The charger is also much easier to use, and lower cost than the one I use for NiMh. Plug it in, and the LED is either RED for charging or GREEN for charge complete or not needed. Doesn’t get much simpler than that. I charge them in the trail car or tender, in my garage, on a somewhat fire resistant surface.
I think the jury is still out on Lithium-Polymers. The R/C guys love them due to their light weight. But very expensive, and more to the topic here, potentially very dangerous. My only experience with them is the little single cell, 120 mah batteries for my Blade helicopters. No trains.
Nothing at all wrong with NiMh. Lower cost, and a little bigger and heavier. But I have a bunch of them that just keep on working. The charger I use is a universal NiCad/NiMh. It detects and sets the proper voltage, but you have to set the charge current. You get a lot more information and charging options, but it can also get you in trouble.
NiMh will tell you when they are getting low by slowing down the train. Li-Ions will just stop the train dead.
Jon Radder said:I'm at that point too. I'm on my 3rd laptop battery, so Li-Ion hasn't worked too well for me so far.
I'm about to purchase my first set of dedicated batteries for train use. I'm torn between Li-Ion and Ni-Mh or just plain old NiCd. I really like the size and the fact that the Lithium cells hold their charge, but the cost and charging issues may keep me away.
You’ll see the Lithium prices go up if there are new regulations for transportation.
Ralph
If only I could get Li-Ion batteries here that did actually stop the train dead.
The only ones I can get have the pcb that restricts the output to force flyers to land when the battery is down. They give a small amount of power, just enough to steer as in control a plane until it lands.
The problem for trains is all this does is slow them down a bit and if left unattended they deplete the battery below the safe threshold.
I am still testing a Li-Ion pack in my demo loco and would much prefer to use them than either NiCd or NiMh for size reasons alone.
Until they are reliable enough to sell without fearing they get screwed up during use resulting in claims against the supplier, I much prefer NiCd to NiMh as they do not self discharge at the rate NiMh does. Plus, according to Sanyo, they last twice as long as NiMh in terms of the number of re-charges they will take.
From what I can tell from the All-Battery website, the packs they sell have both a low-current and a low voltage shut-off. Those are the ones Del uses.
It looks like I will have no choice on the Porter conversion. In order to get speaker, sound board, throttle, receiver and power inside the boiler shell the batteries must be quite small. I think the biggest I’m going to be able to fit is an 11.1V pack. NiCd or NiMH require too many cells for the available space.
I believe the overcharge/overdischarge protection PCB is all based on voltage; too high or too low.
I sell a lot of stuff, but haven’t really done all that many installations (not part of my business), but I always gringe at the thought of burying all that stuff in a boiler, because I assume it is not only a tight fit, but it will be horribly inaccessible for programming, troubleshooting, or maintenance in the future. I’ve never tried it, just my opinion.
Jon,
If the Porter is of the saddle tank variety here is how I did my conversion.
http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/ForumArchives/tabid/100/Default.aspx?TOPIC_ID=19441
The hardest part was slicing the metal weight in half.
Gordon Watson kindly did it for me on a metal cutting band saw.
Jon Radder said:
From what I can tell from the All-Battery website, the packs they sell have both a low-current and a low voltage shut-off. Those are the ones Del uses.It looks like I will have no choice on the Porter conversion. In order to get speaker, sound board, throttle, receiver and power inside the boiler shell the batteries must be quite small. I think the biggest I’m going to be able to fit is an 11.1V pack. NiCd or NiMH require too many cells for the available space.
Which Porter?
On a 1:20 Botch Porter, I fit 14.4V of NiMH, RCS, Sierra or Phoenix, speaker, all on-board, nothing visible in the cab.
TonyWalsham said:
Jon, If the Porter is of the saddle tank variety here is how I did my conversion.http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/ForumArchives/tabid/100/Default.aspx?TOPIC_ID=19441
The hardest part was slicing the metal weight in half.
Gordon Watson kindly did it for me on a metal cutting band saw.
Very similar install (of course not as pretty) but done none the less…I used AA size NiMh, it’s what I had…
cale
Ralph Berg said:Jon Radder said:[b]I'm at that point too.[/b] I'm on my 3rd laptop battery, so Li-Ion hasn't worked too well for me so far.
I'm about to purchase my first set of dedicated batteries for train use. I'm torn between Li-Ion and Ni-Mh or just plain old NiCd. I really like the size and the fact that the Lithium cells hold their charge, but the cost and charging issues may keep me away.You’ll see the Lithium prices go up if there are new regulations for transportation.
Ralph
what point? new laptop battery or you looking for some battery trains?
cale
It’s worthwhile to understand and read that the article makes a distinction between lithium metal batteries and lithium ion batteries. Notice that the FAA test were on lithium metal batteries.
I am one of the few people here (AFAIK) that not only had lithium metal batteries, but intentionally overcharged one. They do act differently and burn like a roman candle, much more violently than li-ion or li-poly batteries.
Read the article carefully. Not saying they are all perfectly safe and nothing can ever go wrong, but the real impetus came from lithium metal batteries.
Regards, Greg
Greg Elmassian said:
It's worthwhile to understand and read that the article makes a distinction between lithium metal batteries and lithium ion batteries. Notice that the FAA test were on lithium metal batteries.I am one of the few people here (AFAIK) that not only had lithium metal batteries, but intentionally overcharged one. They do act differently and burn like a roman candle, much more violently than li-ion or li-poly batteries.
Read the article carefully. Not saying they are all perfectly safe and nothing can ever go wrong, but the real impetus came from lithium metal batteries.
Regards, Greg
From the story:
“Lithium ion batteries are also flammable and capable of self-igniting. They can generate temperatures very close to the melting point of aluminum, which is what the exterior of airplanes are typically made of, the safety directive said.”
"The Pipeline and Hazardous Materials Safety Administration proposed new regulations in January that would require lithium batteries be treated as hazardous cargo. Battery shipments would have to have special packaging and workers who ship them would have to receive special training. There would also have to be special labeling and pilots would have to told that their cargo contained lithium batteries.
Ralph
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Yes, I said it made a distinction, notice that the TESTING was done with lithium metal, they give you information about li-ion, which is true, but they did not TEST them (at least they did not state that).
I GOT the obvious stuff Ralph, was hoping you could see the finer details.
To be super super clear, repeating myself, the FAA apparently did testing ONLY on li-metal. Would be nice for them to more completely understand ALL lithium technologies, since li-ion and li-polymer are MUCH more prevalent. You look around you and find some li-metal batteries in your house! I’ll bet you have none.
It may be true someone is shipping some li-metal, but by far the BULK is li-ion… by far. They ARE different. That’s why consumer equipment does not have li-metal any more…
Greg
Lithium technology needs to be treated with respect. With that said I’ll repeat what I’ve written in the past. The danger is comes from over discharging or over charging particularly with LiPo batteries. In RC flying our ESC’s generally have a low voltage cutoff (LVC) that is able to set according to battery size. Even the cheapie ESC’s have an LVC that detects if the pack is a 2 cell or 3 cell pack. Model railroad ESC’s don’t have this feature so it is possible to run a pack below a safe point (<3v per cell).
Charging at an incorrect amperage rate and/or not setting the correct voltage cutoff for the pack is where you get into trouble with charging.
The LiIon packs out there that have an safety circuit on the pack seem to be pretty safe. The board keeps the pack from being over charged or over discharged. I know of no vendor selling LiPo packs with such a feature and this is why I would not use them in model RR’ing. I have been using LiIon packs with an old Train Engineer system and with 6 RCS EVO & Beltrol systems for a couple of years now with no problems.
The amp draw in model RR’ing is far below what we draw in RC flying so this provides another avenue of safety. (I’ve got some motor/batterypack/esc combos that are pulling 60A out of LiPo’s).
Any battery technology has its dangers if abused. With that said if you have a proper charger and configure the pack to meet the amp and volt demands correctly and don’t over discharge the pack you will most likely be safe. Again because of the lack of safety circuitry in model RR esc’s and on LiPo packs I don’t recommend using them in model RR’ing.
Hopefully this will help people out. I also recommend that you read RCGroups.com battery forum. It has a wealth of informatiion.
Dave
Greg Elmassian said:
Yes, I said it made a distinction, notice that the TESTING was done with lithium metal, they give you information about li-ion, which is true, but they did not TEST them (at least they did not state that).I GOT the obvious stuff Ralph, was hoping you could see the finer details.
To be super super clear, repeating myself, the FAA apparently did testing ONLY on li-metal. Would be nice for them to more completely understand ALL lithium technologies, since li-ion and li-polymer are MUCH more prevalent. You look around you and find some li-metal batteries in your house! I’ll bet you have none.
It may be true someone is shipping some li-metal, but by far the BULK is li-ion… by far. They ARE different. That’s why consumer equipment does not have li-metal any more…
Greg
Greg,
I am just the messenger. I have no opinion in this matter.
I got the finer details. They may have tested both, as they stated the Halon fire suppression systems on planes would extinguish a Lithium Ion fire, but not a Lithium Metal fire.
The point being, they are about to regulate ALL Lithium batteries as hazardous cargo. This will drive up the price, as well as making shipping from your dealer more difficult and expensive.
I have a Li-Ion battery in my laptop. I don’t lock it away in a fire-proof box.
Ralph
Right now, I think the current USPS regulations prohibit Lithoum batteries.
But not NiCad or NiMH.
But, that changes weekly.
I cannot buy enough insurance to cover some moron’s house if he fails to follow protocol and torches something with a Lithium pack light-off, so I want absolutely nothing to do with them.
There are several houses or garages that burned due to Lithium, the first reorted was actually on the AC forum, and there was another that he doesn’t want discussed.
One is too much, and I wonder how many fires there really have been, just not reported in the LS community?
Just wait until one of those Shovit Volts decides to torch itself with a family inside at 60MPH, and see how fast this all comes to a screeching halt.