No matter what brand of R/C you choose be very careful the type of battery to power.
Pop over to the AristoCraft forum to read about what happened to Chad Konofe when a Lithium battery caught fire whilst being charged.
'twas highly interesting to see Whiskey-Jack try to explain about lithium vs LiPoly…“I have heard of Lithium Polymer batteries doing this (as opposed to Li-Ion).”
Hell, it was Li-Ion that did it FIRST, the polymer was supposed to be the “fix” and wasn’t.
I guess it’s my fault, as I kept telling folks it wasn’t a good idea.
I’ve had all 3 type of rechargeable lithiums, -ion, -polymer, and -metal (no longer available).
I’ve burned up all three types, although I only actually caught the lithium-metal ones on fire. (I did it on purpose).
Basically, lithium is a metal that can burn in oxygen. Pure lithium will self-ignite in a pure oxygen atmosphere.
You just gotta be careful.
Since they are so light and small, they are ideal for cell phones, pda’s, etc.
But we usually have more room in G scale, and you can discharge lead-acid and nicad and nickle-metal-hydride batteries deeper without damage.
They are harder to overcharge and damage.
So, you makes your choices and you takes your chances.
I have approximately 100 rechargeable batteries in my garage for various gadgets and projects, and some of my nicad packs are 25-30 years old.
Regards, Greg
Maybe it’s me … I don’t see the thread. Couple on Li-ion batteries… but nothing about a fire.
Orwell’s Ministry of Truth?
Matthew (OV)
Was locked with a cryptic note.
Now moved to the off-topic forum.
Fire started in his workbench, according to fire department. Right where battery charger and batteries were, I’d lock the thread if it was my product and my site. It would be easy for that to spin out of control.
Other than the first Sony cordless phones and my personal abuse of some old lithium-metal batteries, I have never seen nor heard of a lithium charger failing such that it overcharged the batteries and caused ignition.
Most often someone is using the wrong charger.
I just disassembled about 20 old lithium battery packs, pulling the individual cells. They are A size (longer than AA and a little more diameter). The ones with corrosion at the terminals were tossed. Then I’m test charging them with my secret method. I have to watch them initially because if they are bad, they will overheat. One I ignored made a loud pfffffttt… and oozed nasty stuff on the shelf.
I’m intending on making a few high capacity li-ion packs for someone. I’ve got to select the charger for whoever that turns out to be though.
It’s one of my hobbies, kind of a challenge to recover and reuse batteries.
Regards, Greg
Ya know, Greg, if you are going to give advice you had best make certain you have facts to back it up.
The chargers can fail and overcharge.
The sense circuit can fail.
Lithiums can fail internally, and it makes no matter if they are even ON charge (I recall a Mercedes with an r/c aircraft in the trunk mentioned on one model plane forum).
If they are failing internally, simply charging them can blow them.
There isn’t any way I know of yet to hold one up to your turban with your eyes closed and see into the cell to know (Carnac…)
If the cell fails, and goes into thermal runaway, there is nothing you can do.
It may have been right next to a charger, didn’t have to be plugged in.
This is one of the issues with lithium.
God help you if you ever come across Lithium Hydroxide batteries.
I have.
I have a clipping here somewhere, local cop detectives, GPS unit ON CHARGE in the basement of City Hall, blew up, evacuated city hall.
How about the kid (local) with the cell phone on his hip that blew up?
They do not have to be on charge.
They do not have to be dropped (although it does seem this is the reason in some instances).
I don’t want them on the property.
And I would be a fool to sell them to someone.
You can’t buy enough insurance to pay for a house and family gone.
I would not use NiMH until the charge problems were worked out.
Maybe someday Lithiums will get sorted, but I’d bet fuel cells will be out before that.
Greg,
I have made no comments or allegations as to exactly what happened and I would caution you to be equally circumspect.
If it was a Crest Lithium battery in a loco and a Crest charger charging it, it has already spun out of control.
Locking it makes sense for now.
It is the aftermath that is going to be interesting.
Tony:
I agree, and you will note in my post I indicate that: “Other than the first Sony cordless phones and my personal abuse of some old lithium-metal batteries, I have never seen nor heard of a lithium charger failing such that it overcharged the batteries and caused ignition.”
This is a personal observation, not saying it is what did or did not happen in this case, AND that my personal observation does not mean that other things have NOT happened outside my experience.
Dave:
You are indeed grumpy today. I did NOT give anyone advice. I DO know electronics can fail. And I have related a personal experience of setting a lithium-metal battery on fire by overcharging. It went off like a roman candle.
So ease off me a bit, and re-read my post, please. If you point out the bad advice, I’d appreciate it. (Other than any electronics can fail, we both agree on that).
And, no I have never used a lithium-hydroxide battery, sounds interesting. I’ll correct my brain to know there are more types, I assume it is rechargeable.
The words oxide or oxidation and lithium together scare be a bit. Did take a piece of lithium out of a kerosene bath and wrapped it loosely in aluminum foil and flushed it down a toilet in high school. We were told it blew the toilet off the wall. Did not see the aftermath, but it was a chunk about the diameter of a quarter. We were the first graduating class in a new high school, we took care of the lithium, sodium and the nitric acid pretty quickly. We also learned the difference between ethyl and methyl alcohol, but that’s a different story.
On a serious note, what don’t you like about NiMH batteries (I don’t like them much either, full charge harder to detect than nicads, and to me, they have all the sensitivity to poor chargers that nicads have, i.e. the so-called memory effect). I’m always eager to learn more about batteries, as I have said, kind of a hobby for me.
Regards, Greg
What I didn’t like about NiMH was the charger technology not up to the battery technology.
The ONLY thing NiMH have over NiCads is charge density.
They cost more, last half as long, need sensing chargers.
Charger technology is up to the battery technology, and as long as folks are prepared to spend more for them and replace them more often, I don’t have any issues NOW.
I use them and sell them, but I also use and sell NiCads.
Most of the time the NiCads will out-last our old legs.
Lithiums going off like a roman candle is about right.
I don’t think you’ve been around long enough on the forums to recall the battles over Lithiums on other forums.
Hit them with facts, newspaper articles, manufacturers websites, and they don’t believe you.
It looked like, in your post just before Matthew’s, that you were supporting Lithiums.
With what I’ve seen and reports I’ve read, the worst thing anyone can do is recommend them.
You ever seen Lithium in water?
Lithium Hydroxide.
Packs used in control circuits for refrigeration systems in over-the-road trucks and containers.
If you try to recharge them, you can have a personal nuclear deterrent device in your hands.
I agree with your entire post.
I’ve designed several consumer devices with li-ion or li-poly batteries (PDA’s, and other small devices), not because it was the best technology, or safest, but we had to make it as small as possible, and as light as possible.
One thing people don’t realize is that many li batteries are only rated for 400 or so charge/discharge cycles.
In my experience, well-treated nicads can exceed 1000 cycles.
But, it seems no one is irate over the shorter life, and the cost of replacing batteries. I have a Motorola RAZR cell phone, and have had batteries die in 2 months. Motorola brand batteries. They were li-ion.
I was in engineering when NiMH batteries came out. We tried using the same charging circuits, and also the same chips, like the Maxim chip. The charge did not terminate properly, we overcharged them, overheated the electrolyte, and basicially shortened the life of the battery.
Now the technology has improved, but people don’t want to pay for expensive chargers, and since no one seems to complain about replacing batteries much more frequently, there seems little motivation by manufacturers to design products to increase battery life.
So when I got to large scale, with enough room for nicads and gel cells, imagine my surprise to see the push for li-ion.
The battery I purposefully overcharged was made by Molicell, which, I believe, made the first commercially available lithium rechargeables, although the chemistry was called lithium-metal.
I still have about 4 of their AA cells. The 5th one would no longer charge properly (internal leakage) so I decided to give it about an amp and a half for a while. Woo-hoo.
Now, that battery chemistry is no longer available, but it was sure fun!
To sum up, if I was not restricted by space or weight, I would always recommend a nicad or gel cell. I think if nothing else, you get more for your money.
Regards, Greg
There are serious issues with AA in our trains.
We need to look at max current IN and OUT, and calculate use.
Most are .5A, above which overheating, permanent destruction of MAH capability, or of the battery and unit, ensue.
My SANYO engineering manual says 1K cycles for NiCads, which is hogwash, but it also says 500 for NiMH, and in my usage, NiCads go 5-6 years, NiMH in the recycle at 2.
I have chargers that do Li technology, but the issue is more with the cells themselves lighting off, for me.
“Keptin! The dilithium chrystals will never take it!”
Now those would be a good power supply! When they overloaded, they just quit. We oughta call Duracell and tell them to get with it!
Greg
Like this one?
Nah…more like this…
Ken
That is known in the industry as "Rats Nest Wiring " . Whilst Tony is probably delighted to see you having a go --successfully we hope – I bet his toes curled up a bit when he saw your effort .
I don’t think anyone should knock what you show in the picture , it may encourage people who haven’t tried because they can’t do as nice a job as Tony or TOC does . I’m all in favour of showing , warts an’ all as long as you enjoy it and it works .
More disciplined wiring has many advantages ,usually in terms of serviceabilty in all senses of the word . And with show and tell , too .
But let’s keep things in perspective --if it doesn’t all come apart when you take the body off , it is probably acceptable . Tidying it up may induce faults . Best left out of sight until you need to get at it .
Mike
Far be it from me to criticise the work of others.
Especially as Ken has been running that loco successfully with the RCS install for some years now.
All wiring matted together can often be a good if unintentional method of stopping induction interfering with the RF signals.
However, it is a good idea if possible to keep the receiver antenna out of the other wiring.
As TOC would say: Holy Batman!
In future I most certainly will remove my Canon Li-Ions as soon as they’re charged. Probably wouldn’t happen with their equipment, but best not tempt the gremlins!
I don’t know if you have to go to that extent. All the li-ion chargers I have indicate when the charge is terminated. I normally charge stuff where I will pass by and see charging progress. If the charge does not terminate in a reasonable time, I investigate.
Regards, Greg