Large Scale Central

LGB F7A Donut of Death

If you have an LGB F7A and/or B unit this might be of some value to you. I bought an F7A and B unit in SP and NH within about a year or two after they came out. When I put them on my track and cranked up the transformer, I was disappointed to find that they seemed to require a huge amount power to move at speed, and never did get to what I would think of as Passenger train speed. As I result I almost never used them. The sound from the B unit was great, but it would not work without the A unit, so I couldn’t use them with my Aristo and USA Trains diesels.

Recently I have been converting my entire collection of engines (over a hundred, talk about getting carried away) to Battery/RC operation and I came to my LGB F7s. I had some problems figuring out the wiring. The A unit, had a circuit board in the middle of it that had this donut shaped gizmo with copper wire wound around it. It just looked like it would take the power of a nuclear power plant to operate it! So I called it the Donut of Death Board (if you’ve seen the movie, Spaced Invaders, you will enjoy the humor here all the more). As I couldn’t figure the wiring out I just resorted to my old stand-by of completely by-passing the board and direct wiring my leads, that would eventually go to the battery/RC car, to the motors in the trucks. Figured I would lose the lights and sound, but I was/am determined to completely abandon track power no matter what the cost.

Then I went to run the unit. To my surprise, it ran great. I could get passenger train speeds with no problem. So what the hell is the Donut of Death doing?! Was the sound unit in the B unit sucking down a bajillion watts? Who knows! You track power people could do the same sort of by-pass, wiring the track pickup wires directly to the motor supply wires and get the same result.

Then I turned my attentions to the B unit with the wonderful sound unit. LGB manual says you must have an A unit to drive this puppy. Is that really true. Was the Donut of Death in the A unit doing certain mysterious electrical magic that only the B unit could digest? I found that it was not. I wired my battery lead into the sound unit using the two pin connectors provided by LGB. I was thus avoiding those dreaded ribbon cables in the interior of the unit, which scare me greatly. I cut this provided 2 pin connector wire in halve and wired the cut part to my battery wires. The sound unit worked great and did not seem to take much power. I can now use these wonderful sound B units with any engine I want. There is chuff-like wiring that goes into one of the two trucks that makes the sound unit dance. If you are a track power person, you could use the other truck to pick up power and direct it to the 2 pin connector without messing with any ribbon cables, and you too can use these wonderful sound units, trailing behind any engine, although I do suggest you only use diesel engines. If you use it behind a steam engine, people will think you are some sort of pervert.

I then tested the use of the 4 pin cable for sound between the A and B units, and the A unit’s speaker fired in an excellent manner along with the B units speaker. Thus I had stereo sound! All this without the Donut of Death being involved in the wiring!

I have not got the lights in the A unit working yet as there is a 10 pin ribbon cable involved, which I am afraid of. But I am sure it can be done, also, without the Donut of Death. I do not know what the Donut of Death is doing. Perhaps some of you out there can enlighten me about the error of my electrical ways. But now I have two great running A units and two sound B units that make all of my diesel audio operations a joy. Track or Battery power, matters not, you can do the same.

Ted I don’t have any definite answer for you, but I will say that the thread title and your post have me so intrigued I now await anxiously for someone in the know to reply…. I do have an LGB “B&O” F7 A-B-A set made in 1997 or 1998 that seems to run just fine and has never been touched with a screwdriver. From your description the donut of death sounds to me like a toroidal filter which is used sometimes as a bandpass filter or to filter out unwanted RF “noise” from a line voltage or signal. It filters out AC or RF above or below a certain frequency based upon the physical specs of the donut of wire. That would seem to be useful in keeping internal signals pure in the loco control circuitry. But I could be all wet.

I had not touched my two A units when I first got them. Perhaps their poor performance has something to do with some oddities of the transformer I was using at the time. My Aristo and USA Trains diesel units ran fine with that transformer though. Maybe the donut filtered out too much power as “noise”, with that transformer. If they are work fine for you, you certainly do not want to mess with them. The only exception may be to modify the B unit so you can use it with other diesel units, if you have them and are so inclined. Thanks for the info.

Edward Quinn said:
The only exception may be to modify the B unit so you can use it with other diesel units, if you have them and are so inclined. Thanks for the info.
Edward - presumably you mean other LGB diesel units? They are sooooo much bigger than the more usual 1/29th scale stuff that they'd look pretty strange, to say the least.

My $0.02.

tac
www.ovgrs.org

Terry A de C Foley said:
Edward - presumably you mean other LGB diesel units? They are sooooo much bigger than the more usual 1/29th scale stuff that they'd look pretty strange, to say the least. (snip) www.ovgrs.org
TAC I thought they were once (or maybe several times) measured to be closer to 1/27th "scale" although not in all 3 dimensions if I recall. My F7 lashup really does not look out of place next to my few Aristo-craft and USAT dismals, but I have not compared them side by side to the Aristo E8 or the USAT F3, nor had any other passenger cars to place behind them other than the LGB series.

Ed - did your power pack supply PWM (pulse width modulation) or straight DC to the track? LGB locos do not like PWM at all.

AL McEvoy said:
Terry A de C Foley said:
Edward - presumably you mean other LGB diesel units? They are sooooo much bigger than the more usual 1/29th scale stuff that they'd look pretty strange, to say the least. (snip) www.ovgrs.org
TAC I thought they were once (or maybe several times) measured to be closer to 1/27th "scale" although not in all 3 dimensions if I recall. My F7 lashup really does not look out of place next to my few Aristo-craft and USAT dismals, but I have not compared them side by side to the Aristo E8 or the USAT F3, nor had any other passenger cars to place behind them other than the LGB series.

Ed - did your power pack supply PWM (pulse width modulation) or straight DC to the track? LGB locos do not like PWM at all.


My response to that is simple - if it looks good to you… :wink:

End of comment.

Besp

tac
www.ovgrs.org

[quote=Terry A de C Foley They are sooooo much bigger than the more usual 1/29th scale stuff that they’d look pretty strange, to say the least.

Yes they do seem to be way bigger than 1/29th, but I had heard they were supposed to scale out at 1/28th. That should be insignificant. Do you know what scale they really are?

AL McEvoy said:
[ Ed - did your power pack supply PWM (pulse width modulation) or straight DC to the track? LGB locos do not like PWM at all.
I do not know. I will have to dig it out of storage. Will get back with you on that later.

Edward Quinn said:
Yes they do seem to be way bigger than 1/29th, but I had heard they were supposed to scale out at 1/28th. That should be insignificant. Do you know what scale they really are?

OK

(http:///F-PIX/ChartF7_F3.gif)

It’s like some comments one reads on fora: out of proportion! :wink: :slight_smile: :smiley: OTOH it’s from the makers of “we adjust it for our own pleasing proportions” (“G - wie Gummi”) items.

Hans-Joerg Mueller said:

Edward Quinn said:
Yes they do seem to be way bigger than 1/29th, but I had heard they were supposed to scale out at 1/28th. That should be insignificant. Do you know what scale they really are?

OK

(http:///F-PIX/ChartF7_F3.gif)

It’s like some comments one reads on fora: out of proportion! :wink: :slight_smile: :smiley:

Well, I reckon that the guy who measured the original to produce the prototype used a pastrami stick as a rule, from which he took the odd bite as he moved around the full-size loco. How else to explain the variations in ‘scale’? Like most of the larger LGB models of American stuff produced around the same era - the mikados [US and French], around 51% of the dimensions seem to have been reproduced at 1/27th scale, probably. Thankfully, the last hoorah of LGB in the US market, the Genesis loco, seems to be around 90% - perhaps more - to 1/29th scale. The Aster/LGB White Pass Mike - with the exception of the oversize drivers - is a triumph of 1/22.5 modelling. More or less. tac www.ovgrs.org

Freight sheds are down, so I can’t post a pic of the dreaded donut!
Bob?

Hey JB, I like it

JB's sign off said:
"The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing." Albert Einstein
Mind you that drives some people to distraction and then they call it heresy, next they call for the inquisition or worse. ;) :)

This is the donut. Notice the big bank of capacitors to the right.

(http://www.lscdata.com/users/jebouck/lgbdonut2.jpg)

I was told at some time that the F7’s had some circuitry that used the first 5 + volts to start lights and sound. Motors would not get power until that voltage was exceeded. Don’t ask who told me my memory isn’t what it once was… However observation of my F7s supports that theory. How it works is beyond me.

The “doughnut of death” is an inductor. At least that would be my guess. It sure looks like one.

Inductor

So in practice I can see why it reduces top speeds and starting speeds. The LGB mogul have this too as my newer undecorated model would not move until 5 volts or so. I believe this is so the lights and smoke get enough juice to work right before the loco starts moving. My old mogul (2019s) would move at the slightest voltage increase. But the lights and especially the smoke unit never got enough power to work as well as my newer mogul unless I really gave it some power, but then it was moving too fast.

I’m glad to hear that I am not the only one seeing this performance problem. It was so bad with my F7 units and the transformer I was using, that I didn’t want to use them at all. Now that I by-passed the Donut of Death, they are favorites of mine.

A power supply with higher voltage would run your F7’good. As others mention, the motor does not see voltage until after the first 5 volts due to the 5 volt system/circuit board, lights, smoke unit, sound, ect.
For instance a power supply is only say 18 volts peek, , then the F7 would only get say about 10-12 volts to the motor.

The inductor most likely helps to smooth the output of a pulsed output voltage regulator. The power tab transistor shown allows more power to be controlled.

The circuit probably looks something like this:

Bridge(+)—>-----------tab---->inductor----->polarity switch----->load +
l l l l \ /
l l aikd caps \ /
pulsed V. reg–>-l l l X
l l l /
Bridge(-)—>–l--------------l--------------l—>polarity switch----->load -

aikd = anti-inductive-kick-diode, stripe or arrow up, protects power tab transistor

Joe

The pic John Bouck shows has the sockets for where an LGB decoder can be installed.
If the locos Ed has does have DCC decoders installed, they will behave very poorly if you attempt to run them with a track side DC PWM controller supplying the track.
You must only use filtered linear DC with DCC decoders. Otherwise they can get “confused”.

That pictured board is out of an LGB Mike.
But that donut appears on quite a few LGB boards.
I can’t remember if my LGB F units had them, it’s been too long ago since I got rid of them.