Large Scale Central

Krauss Maffei ML4000 Hydraulics

General Discussion
#1

Hi everone.
I’m new to this forum and have joined it to get your oppinions on a subject.
I am a model maker in the UK and I’ve been designing and building loco’s up to 5 inch gauge for over 20 years. My speciality is finescale Hydraulic outline models and now I have been comisioned to make a 1/29 model of the first series of Krauss Maffei ML4000’s.

The model is only a nickle silver one-off, but if there was enough interest then I can make it as a master to be cast in injection moulded resin, as I have done many times before with other projects.

It would be a one piece body with metal side frames, leaving the builder to add handrails ect and also the chassis and power trucks.
The cost for the casting is very high, but if there was enough interest then it would be great to put them into a small production run.
The price is a bit hazy as it would depend on whether I sell 5 or 25, but I would hope it would be about £300 maximum.

I have got quite alot of official manuals with works drawings so there is no problem with accurate information.
I would welcome any idea’s and constructive criticism from you all.
Thanks Rob

#2

Rob,
That’s one butt-ugly engine, so I doubt anyone would want one. :slight_smile: :slight_smile:
Heck, even SP got rid of 'em.
jb

#3

I’m sure some people are interested as it is different and unusual.
Rob…any pictures of your previous projects?
Ralph

#4

Thats just different enough that I bet people would buy em.

#5

I had no idea what this was. Found this on a brass loco maker’s website…

(http://www.divisionpoint.com/photos/D+RGW-SP_KM/D+RGW_4001b.jpg)

Odd - That JPG file doesn’t display as a picture without the img tags. There is a + in the filename, that’s most likely the problem.

#6

I didn’t even know Rio Grande had any!
Learn something new every day.

Remember that ugly Alco D (something)?
I’ll look for a pic, unless someone beats me to it.

jb

#7
John Bouck said:
I didn't even know Rio Grande had any! Learn something new every day. [i][/i] jb
According to the website I got that photo from: The initial order was a joint venture of SP and RG. All of the SP units eventually ended up on the RG. Lots of mods were made to overcome MU and breathing problems, but in the end the hydraulic drive didn't do what was hoped, so it was abandon.
#8

I’d never heard of those locos before either, and did some googling. Interesting stuff.

Jon Radder wrote: “According to the website I got that photo from: The initial order was a joint venture of SP and RG. All of the SP units eventually ended up on the RG.”

The sites I looked at said just the opposite, that the RG had too many problems with them in the mountains and sold them to the SP. The SP also had trouble in mountainous areas (slippage), and restricted them to places with mild grades.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KM_ML-4000

I read that they also turned one of them into an unpowered camera car, which was used to shoot film for a training simulator.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Pacific_9010

#9

See…there is a use for back copies of TRAINS Magazine.

I don’t have a copy available, but I do remember a number of articles on those Diesal Hydralics, in Trains, many years ago. Rail fans back then were chasing them like crazy as they were gradually removed from service.
Near the end they usually appeared in photos looking very grimy and worse for wear.
I thought they looked best in the SP red and grey paint, but some would disagree.

As far as buying a model of them…I’m not interested. There were several offered in HO, brass and plastic. I think you could still find then, new, not many years ago. Check the ads in old Model Railroader Magazines.

#10
Ray Dunakin said:
I'd never heard of those locos before either, and did some googling. Interesting stuff.

Jon Radder wrote: “According to the website I got that photo from: The initial order was a joint venture of SP and RG. All of the SP units eventually ended up on the RG.”

The sites I looked at said just the opposite, that the RG had too many problems with them in the mountains and sold them to the SP. The SP also had trouble in mountainous areas (slippage), and restricted them to places with mild grades.


I could have easily got it backwards. I’m dyslexic :smiley:

#11

Hey, Fr. Fred,

The Semmering story
Trains, October 1961 page 43
testing Southern Pacific’s Krauss-Maffei locomotives
( AUSTRIA, DIESEL, KM, “MORGAN, DAVID P.”, OBB, ENGINE, LOCOMOTIVE, TRN )

A weekend in the Rockies with the KMs
Trains, February 1962 page 34
how are D&RGW’s Krauss-Maffei locomotives working out?
( D&RGW, DIESEL, HYDRAULIC, KM, “MORGAN, DAVID P.”, ENGINE, LOCOMOTIVE, TRN )

What D&RGW thinks of its KMs
Trains, November 1962 page 36
description of Kraus-Maffei diesels and commentary on their performance
( D&RGW, DIESEL, HYDRAULIC, KM, “SCHMIDT, J. J.”, ENGINE, LOCOMOTIVE, TRN )

From the Rockies to the Berkshires
Trains, June 1976 page 40
New York Central tests Rio Grande diesel-hydraulics
( “CAVANAUGH, H. F.”, DIESEL, HYDRAULIC, KM, NYC, ENGINE, LOCOMOTIVE, TRN )

Was it one of these?

Sincerely,

Joe Satnik

#12

Yes…those were the articles I was thinking of…it sure was a “Few” years ago…

Thanks for digging out the information, Joe. Some-one might like to go back and read them.

Research can be a great part of the “Model Railroad Hobby”. Too many newbies, seem to avoid research, and expect others to do all the legwork for them.
Trains Magazine, and Railroad & Railfan, are just two of a number of great sources of information, along with the NMRA’s “Klambake” library.

Too many LS hobbiests, avoid the other model magazines, just because they think that they can’t learn from them. Depending just on Garden Railways Magazine, gives them a poor vision of what Model Railroading is all about as a Great and diverse hobby, with something in it for everyone.

#13
Fred Mills said:
Research can be a great part of the "Model Railroad Hobby". Too many newbies, seem to avoid research, and expect others to do all the legwork for them. Too many LS hobbiests, avoid the other model magazines ....
Fred,

Your opinion matches mine. If it wasn’t for research, I don’t think I would enjoy the hobby at all, even though I don’t fell the need to be restricted by it.

Jack

#14

Hi guys.
Thanks for your replys, as they say, beauty is in the eye of the beholder!!! Some folks seem to hate them and some (like me) love 'em.
I can’t seem to post any pictures of my work, but on the forum I use in the UK some kind folks let me e-mail them and they post them up for me. I’m affraid I know my way around tools and a workbench but computers are a mystery to me.
I normaly work in finescale 1/32 and alot of my stuff has been featured in the railway press over here. The model would be of a very high standard and accuracy. Please give me any idea’s or opinions on this as I think that 1/29 people may not be “into” kits, where as other scales love them!
Thanks Rob

#15

Oh, I forgot to mention that if it goes ahead, I expect to have them ready by early to mid summer next year.
Rob

#16

Lot’s of scratch building and bashing going on in G scale. Our choice of RTR stock is rather limited.
Ralph

#17

My take: since this was a real odd-ball on the proto - with a checkered performance history - in a very narrow era … if it would be me I’d leave it at the nickel silver model. :wink: :slight_smile:

#18

One of your members has offered to post some pictures of my work, so I hope some of you will find them interesting?
As regards “odd ball” stuff, that is a strange thing in model railroading. Most people don’t want loads of the normal type everyday workhorse loco’s and instead opt for the unusual or special types of loco’s, Big boy’s, GG1’s ect. If we waited for the big companies to make anything ultra rare or interesting then we would be there a very long time as there is just not the profit in tooling up for tiny production runs, unless you pay the mega prices of the brass loco’s from the far east!! We end up with only the mundane types available, so then you get folks doing all sorts of scratch building ect.
My line of work is to produce very, very small runs or “one off’s” of these types of loco’s, and I need to only make about 8 to break even, which worldwide is not many! Over the years I have made well over 70 brass loco’s in “O” scale with the vast majority as rare or special types of loco. This shows that the market does lean towards these types and so I only need to see a little interest and it can become a reality. Also, please don’t take this the wrong way folks, but I don’t need a list of people saying that its ugly and that they wouldn’t buy it, I can find a billion of those people with no effort. What I need is people who may be interested, or want to give some ideas and input. Over here people sit back and say nothing until after a model is launched and then bitch and moan about it and how it should be done instead of all helping to improve things from the start.

#19

Hi John. Thanks for your kind offer to help with the posting of pictures. I have sent you a small selection of my work, the fist is the master I made in 5 inch scale of a British diesel cab, the next is the small production run of resin castings made from the mould, the third and fourth are my 1/32 models. Everything was built, painted and weathered by me. Thanks again Rob

(http://www.lscdata.com/users/jebouck/KMsept29post.jpg)

(http://www.lscdata.com/users/jebouck/KMsept29post%20a.JPG)

(http://www.lscdata.com/users/jebouck/KMsept29post%20b.JPG)

(http://www.lscdata.com/users/jebouck/KMsept29post%20c.jpg)

#20
Rob Fern said:
One of your members has offered to post some pictures of my work, so I hope some of you will find them interesting? As regards "odd ball" stuff, that is a strange thing in model railroading. Most people don't want loads of the normal type everyday workhorse loco's and instead opt for the unusual or special types of loco's, Big boy's, GG1's ect. If we waited for the big companies to make anything ultra rare or interesting then we would be there a very long time as there is just not the profit in tooling up for tiny production runs, unless you pay the mega prices of the brass loco's from the far east!! We end up with only the mundane types available, so then you get folks doing all sorts of scratch building ect. My line of work is to produce very, very small runs or "one off's" of these types of loco's, and I need to only make about 8 to break even, which worldwide is not many! Over the years I have made well over 70 brass loco's in "O" scale with the vast majority as rare or special types of loco. This shows that the market does lean towards these types and so I only need to see a little interest and it can become a reality. Also, please don't take this the wrong way folks, but I don't need a list of people saying that its ugly and that they wouldn't buy it, I can find a billion of those people with no effort. What I need is people who may be interested, or want to give some ideas and input. Over here people sit back and say nothing until after a model is launched and then bitch and moan about it and how it should be done instead of all helping to improve things from the start.
Rob,

My point was/is if you would like to produce some unusual engine there are most likely quite a few NA prototypes that would be easier to build and market than the ML 4000.