Large Scale Central

Kader's Empire

In case you needed confirmation that Kader now owns Aristo-craft, I offer this ‘History’ page on the website of Liliput, a german train manufacturer.

http://liliput.de/en/about-us/history.html

On the bottom of the page is a list of the companies that Kader now owns - I copied it here:

  • Liliput (HO, HOe, N & G scale German/European models)
  • Bachmann/Spectrum (N, HO, On30 & G scale American models)
  • Branch-Line (00 scale English models)
  • Graham Farish (N scale English models)
  • Aristo-Craft (G scale American models)
  • Bachmann China (H0 scale Chinese models)
  • Woodland Scenics (Model scenic materials)
  • DPM (Building kits)
  • Scenecraft (Buildings & Figures)

Well there it is, proof Aristo is now under Kader. Wonder when they will announce new product?

Kader owns Woodland Scenics? Guess that explains how they can afford to make their pre-assembled pre-painted buildings.

That’s interesting! I thought Woodland Scenics was in the Ozarks of southwestern Missouri.

I don’t take Lilliput’s page as proof Kader owns Aristo-Craft… not only is Lilliput not Kader, and the web page date is 2016, but it does not say that Kader OWNS Aristo, it states:

Today, Kader and its in-house Bachmann brands produce model trains for the German, European, American and Chinese market. Each division has a major input into all aspects of development up until the actual manufacturing process and then again afterwards with the promotion, distribution and sales of the finished product. Kader is worldwide accepted as a manufacturer for major model railways and slot cars.

No statement of ownership, but PRODUCTION.

Kader never owned Aristo-Craft, or Polks GenerationNext, or PrecisionRC…

Greg

Also if you go to http://www.kader.com , Aristo-Craft is NOT on the list of companies (that it produces for)… it’s not there… proving that the Lilliput site is old information.

Greg

Deleted after re reading

Looks like they do not have Woodland Scenics either in their list of propritery brands

here is the note at the bottom of the Woodland Scenics Page from Liliput. Sounds like they are a distrubuter or make some things for Woodland

Please note, that you will find only a small selection of Woodland Scenics models here on our site.
Click for more detailed information directly on the homepage of the manufacturer

The question of who owns who was really muddy before the Kader / Bachmann / Sanda Kan relationships were explained.

Many people believe that Bachmann is the parent company to Kader, but it is the other way around.

Also, Sanda Kan was an independent company, and often Aristo Craft employees (and owners) gave the impression they owned various companies when they did not.

Then, when Sanda Kan was bought by Kader, it was not made very clear, and again stateside companies were being transitioned to Kader (or left to twist in the wind).

It’s interesting that so many companies “let” Kader show their company logos on the Kader site, which clearly in this case led to misunderstanding.

I’ve been following this over the years, and to get the true stories, it’s taken a lot of conversations with owners, distributors, and dealers and had to put the pieces together in some cases.

Regards, Greg

Pete, from my observations, any of the companies can sell the other’s products. Liliput in Germany seems to sell a few Woodland Scenic items. You have to find the US site for the full line.

Note the Bachmann flat and gondola turn up as Lili put items.

Greg, I am sure there are many details of the relationships between the many legal entities involved, and please let us know when you figure it all out. My reading is that Kadee controls Aristo, whether they are full legal owners or not. That “history” page is titled Bachmann Europe plc., which may be another holding company.

We are sort of entering an era of “consolidation” and the big change is that there seem to be fewer and fewer “real” manufacturers, and more and more “manufacturers” are really just contracting with companies like Kader to have their products manufactured.

On the Kader site, you can actually see where they describe which of the companies Kader actually “owns”, one of which is Bachmann.

I’ve kept up on this because it is interesting, but more importantly, it helps explain why certain things happen, for example, how Bachmann offers eggliners (or at least they WILL offer them)…

Also how difficult it was for LGB to move production to Hungary since certain molds were in possession of Kader.

Also, the type 66 loco offered in Europe “by Bachmann” but with Aristo motor blocks.

All interesting stuff.

I do have one question Pete, you state " My reading is that Kadee controls Aristo, whether they are full legal owners or not. "

I gather you meant “Kader” not “Kadee”…

In either case, I would not agree wth that statement. Kader has many of the molds, and can produce old Aristo stuff. They do not control the name “Aristo” or “Aristo Craft”, and remember not ALL Aristo products were made by Kader. The track and electronics were NOT made by Kader… in fact that’s how you saw Polks GenerationNext sell track and how PrecisionRC is selling the Revolution Train Engineer.

Interesting stuff, again, I use the knowledge to understand who owns the molds, production engineering, and engineers themselves.

The good news is that many companies are working to escape the controlling clutches of Kader, who seem bent on either controlling everything or driving small companies into the ground. This has happened to many small model railroad “manufacturers” in MANY different scales.

Regards, Greg

I wonder if the Polk’s ended up simply selling the Aristo naming rights to Kader in order to clear old debts? At this stage nothing would surprise me if they did.

Given that Aristo ceased trading three and a half years ago I would have thought that if Kader owned the Aristo name it would be clearly seen on their web site. The Lilliput site may be off tack but I doubt the Kader one is.

Thanks Alan, yes, looking at the Lilliput site, you see it is older, and that list of companies is shown exactly the same way on the www.kader.com site EXCEPT that Aristo Craft is now no longer on the Kader site. Clearly the Lilliput people copied that exact page some time ago.

Anyway, we know that Kader still has most of the Aristo molds, the big if unfortunately is IF Kader thinks they will make money by re-issuing the SD45 or the Dash 9 or whatever. Unfortunately, I don’t take the issuing of the eggliner as a “great start”, it’s more in the line of “something to sell at Christmas”.

Regards, Greg

Along these lines, Auscision Models, an Australian manufacturer of HO trains, has its products made in China. I haven’t researched, but I suspect its probably Kader that makes those products too. Under the shell, the drive looks suspiciously like an Athern drive. So I am guessing that Kader has nearly cornered the market. Once competition is gone, quality and availability suffers.

I am not going to enter into a dialog over which web site told which story. Let’s look at facts and business probabilities.

Business probability number one goes back much further than the 3 1/2 years Aristo-Craft has been out of business. Most businesses like Aristo, toward the end will run orders up and massive credit. This was evidenced in my opinion by the way Aristo announced new product, then never delivered. I will leave out my personal experiences. For the last 6-9 months of Aristo’s existence as a company, they emphatically denied there was any trouble, yet anyone with business sense could see the writing on the wall.

Next, they tried to salvage the Crewst Electronics line, however I believe the damage to reputation was already done and folks went elsewhere. followed by an attempt to raise funds with pre-orders on small scale equipment. Finally Crest Electronics closed as well.

Now to the Aristo-Craft name. Louis Polk owns the Aristo-Craft name. Scott Polk may have the same last name as Louis,but he has no rights to or ownership of the Aristo-Craft name.

Now to product. In the injection molding industry the die life works like this. The company, in this case Aristo-Craft will contract with a manufacturer, in this case Kader, to make a product. Aristo will purchase and pay for the original set of molds/dies because the molding/die company is not going to assume the risk of success of the product. If the product fails, the contracting company, Aristo, is out the cost of the dies. If the product succeeds, when the dies have reached the end of their productive life the molding company will contact the contracting company and determine whether the original owner, Aristo, wishes to pay for the next set of dies or not. Usually, due to the cost, an agreement will be reached between the company and the molder where the molder pays for the dies and ups his per piece charge for the item (passed on to us), and takes possession of the ownership of the dies. As long as the company continues to order pieces, the manufacturer will continue to make parts.

In this case, Aristo-Craft is no longer a business entity, and most likely has not owned the dies for a considerable time. Kader, who owns the dies has the legal right to make thier money back on their investment in the dies…so long as they are not sold unter the Aristo-Craft name. Even though Aristo no longer exists I believe there is a time frame attached to the copyright of the name.

And everyone needs to remember, China does not have to abide by U.S. law.

Personally, I am surprised Kader has not tested the waters with more than the Eggliners, althoug that would be a very low risk item. Remeber, Kader has all the market information on all the items they produced for Aristo, so they know the turn around on investment. I do believe that a quality redesign of the motor blocks as parts would make a good ROI.

Greg, I don’t believe we are entering an era of consolidation, I believe we are entering an era of much smaller ‘disposable incomes’ which will shrink all hobbies, not just ours. Ours will feel the shrink more because we are a smaller segment of an already shrinking hobby. I believe we are headed backward if you want to call it that, to a time when the smaller ‘garage manufacturer’ was king. I think Mark Dash…(can’t remember his last name) is a perfect example of that. The GAL Line is another.

My closing commnet will be that we, the model railroader, must bear partial responsibility for the Chinese controlling so much of our product line, not only in the hobby, but in general. We the cnsumre have for decades had the montra “We want more and want to pay less”. I am sure most on this site can add and subtract…

My era of consolidation was about the manufacturers, not us.

Fewer smaller independent companies, more huge behemoths that control the scene. When Kader bought Sanda Kan, they almost immediately also dispensed of smaller (which in their view were less profitable) companies.

The net result is Kader bought a competitor and then shrunk the total size of the combined companies, and threw out the low profit customers.

Greg