Large Scale Central

K-27 and Phoenix sound with Track Power?

Electronics Power and Sound
#1

I am an LGB guy. I have 12 track power LGB locos and have installed Phoenix sound systems on two of the moguls. I am very satisfied with Phoenix.

Since LGB(Marklin) has not shipped anything for awhile, I have purchased a K-27 with the intent of installing a Phoenix system using a track power .

Fortunately, I live in Chandler AZ and was able to attend the National Convention this year and talk to reps from Bachman, Phoenix, and Sierra Sound. Bachman feel that they have developed a loco that has “plug and play” capability for after market sound and DCC. This may be true for DCC and battery power, but it seems that it is a different story for track power. I talked with Sierra and John Weaver from Phoenix at the show. Sierra was evasive. John suggested that I send the dummy PC board to them and for $30 dollars they will take care of all the soldering removing or adding of resistors and return me a fully functional and tested system along with the a track power installation manual that they were just going to press with. He went on to tell me that I would have to turn off the smoke in order for the sound to work. It seems as though they get the chuff signal from the sensor that is used by the smoke.

I’ve been monitoring the conversations on this forum and it seems like all of the talk is from DCC or battery installation. Has anyone installed Phoenix system in a track power K-27? Since I’m not too handy with a soldering iron this sounded like a good offer. But since I have to give up smoke, I’m having second thoughts.

Couldn’t I simply install the Phoenix system and use magnets on the axel just like my other two installations

Deano

#2

Sure.

If you don’t have the Phoenix yet, you could spend $127 and put in a QSI.

Lots of options.

Regards, Greg

#3

Hi Greg,
If a QSI is fitted to the K-27 for regular DC track powered operation, what extra components, if any, will be required to achieve what the Phoenix can do?

Can the QSI be operated with simple reed switches (supplied by Phoenix) on the loco and magnets in the track to activate the whistle/horn and bell sounds?

Can the QSI be operated with a pwm output track controller?

#4

Tony, I said lots of options. I did not narrow the application down to PWM power, nor sound systems that could only be triggered by magnets.

The Phoenix sound system likewise has constraints, as your questions were designed to point out the constraints of the QSI.

The originator of the thread said “track power” and DC.

Therefore those were the only limitations I worked with.

If you put a QSI with the sound cap on it, and used autochuff, it would be a very easy install, literally plug and play, and a $45 Quantum Engineer would give him THIRTY different sounds to control with a push of a button.

He would also get momentum effects and sounds that matched the motion of the loco.

So, like I said, LOTS of options. I just did not want to type up ALL the various installation possibilities.

If he had said “plug and play r/c system” I would have recommended your products, but he said “track power DC”.

I’m on this new kick, trying to follow what the originator asked for. On another forum, no matter what someone asks, a certain individual always shows the same installation. I have strong opinions about what is best in various situations, but I don’t try to convince everyone to DCC.

Regards, Greg

#5

Hi Greg.

Most LS’ers I know of that run DC track power and want sound usually have a sound system that will work with either Linear (as in filtered) or PWM and have the sounds triggered by reed switches and magnets in the track.

Sure the QSI sound PnP card has “lots of options”.
I think you need to define what the QSI "lots of options’ are with particular relevance to regular track power DC operation.

I think you would agree those options are somewhat limited for regular DC track use.
Perhpas you would be so kind as to provide answers to the folowing questions.

Can the QSI whistle/horn and bell sounds be operated with simple reed switches and track magnets?
Yes?
No?

In fact, the only way the sounds can be triggered in DC operation is with either a reversing switch in the motor ouputs or by making an additional purchase of a Quantum engineeer which is limited to about 2.5 amps current capability?
Yes?
No?

Can AC and USAT locos be double headed using the Quantum Engineer?
Yes?
No?

Also a fact is the QSI will not work properly with any controller that has a pwm output?
Yes?
No?

The Phoenix P2k2 will work without any additional features and will work correctly with pwm.

By the time you add up the extra cost of a QSI to make it equal a Phoenix in DC operation, there is not much in the way of saving.

#6

Tony, as I stated before I’m not going to spend a lot of time extolling all the pluses and minuses of all the options.

With a Quantum Engineer, the Phoenix on DC cannot match it’s capability.

I don’t really care about PWM.

I don’t care to say one is better than the other.

There are lots of options, not just QSI, not just Phoenix… and this is apples to oranges anyway.

Greg

#7

Can someone with knowledge of the QSI board for the K tell me if it’ll work if I have RC in it, or, if not, does QSI make one that will?

#8

What’s QSI?

#9

Bob,
You need to define “work”.

Will it “work” in the sense that noise will come out of it when used with most R/C systems?
Yes, but, not if they have a pwm output. Like most DCC based decoders the QSI can get “confused” when reading pwm power.

Will it “work” like Phoenix, Sierra and Dallee and be able to trigger various sounds via RCS and/or TE?
NOPE!!!.

QSI can be made to operate on R/C by fitting a “G” Wire receiver and controlling the QSI with an AirWire transmitter.

#10

Wow!

This was my first post on this forum. I didn’t expect to initiate an argument between two people regarding non Phoenix experiences on K-27s or opinions about sound systems in general in my post.

At this point, since no one with any experience related to DC(track power) in a K-27 has responded, I am going to assume that I am breaking new ground here.

I’ll keep any interested individulas aware of what I run into during my endeavour.

Deano

#11

Dean,

Don’t be dismayed. Hijacking threads is required here. :smiley: Sometimes this goes on for days before the original question gets answered. Just hang in there.

madwolf

#12
Dean Bierly said:
Wow! This was my first post on this forum. I didn't expect to initiate an argument between two people . . . Deano
Deano:

Welcome to the LSC way of life!!! Just wait until you ask about something that is controversial.

In this case, both of the initial respondents are really experts: Greg Elmassian in DCC and Tony Walsham in R/C. Tony is the Aussie manufacturer of what many of us believe is the best R/C system (RCS) made for LS trains. No simple D.C. track power in either of their worlds, at least that they would probably admit to. Third response (actually a question) is the LSC site owner, Bob McCowan.

Glad the (in this case, very light) carping didn’t upset you too much. Most of all, we all really would like to hear about your progress.

Happy RRing,

Jerry

#13

Dean.
You asked about a Phoenix sound system in a K-27.

Greg suggested a QSI which has “lots of options” as another choice.

The QSI is a great sound system. But, even with all the “lots of options” the QSI out of the box will NOT do what the Phoenix will do out of the box on regular track powered DC.
Hence my questioning of his suggestion.

Sure the QSI can be made to do lots more things on DC by the addition of a trackside Quantum Engineer.
It is a great device, but, adding it in the circuit will limit the amount of power available to about 2.5 amps. Just enough for one loco.
Maybe enough for a small train as well, maybe not.

BTW, although I make RCS battery R/C, I have no interest in any particular sound system. I use and sell many of them. Except QSI that is, for the reasons I have outlined above.
I have also sold and installed many sound systems in regular DC track powered locos, so I do know what I am talking about.

#14

Bob, yes, I can answer questions on the QSI. I would suggest going to the qsisolutions web site to see the product, it has a lot of stuff there, that I don’t really want to type up in duplicate.

Bob, you could also go to my web site and search for QSI, or go to the DCC section and look at QSI.

Tony, the QSI likewise does stuff that the Phoenix will NOT do out of the box on regular track powered DC. So, that and other products give people lots of options.

I don’t feel like getting into a debate over what is best. I don’t wish to argue the fine point that DC only without the Quantum Engineer the Phoenix does more. (You are correct there Tony).

In my mind, if I was going track power DC, adding a $45 control unit to have the option of 30 remotely-controllable sounds would be something I would consider, especially if I was running a $600 loco.

Regards, Greg

#15
Greg Elmassian said:
In my mind, if I was going track power DC, adding a $45 control unit to have the option of 30 remotely-controllable sounds would be something I would consider, especially if I was running a $600 loco.

Regards, Greg


This makes me laugh, because I know lots of guys that brag about having 2 remote controlled sounds (bell & whistle), yet when you watch their trains run, you never hear a sound. Too much trouble to think about it and do it manually I guess. It seems to me the only thing you could do of any practicality with 30 sounds is sit your buddies down and demonstrate that it can be done. To each his own of course.

How does one keep track of that many sounds? A spread sheet? Wristband cheat sheet like the NFL quarterbacks use?

#16

What Greg is not saying is that the Quantum engineer is limited to a max of around 2.5 amps. That will effectively limit it to one loco with a train. So double heading will not be posssible.
I for one would like to hear what the QSI out of the box will do that the Phoenix P2k2 will not do out of the box when running on regular DC track power.

#17

Tony, you should buy one and try it. There are many sounds that work on pure DC. Squealing brakes, and other stuff like sounds vary by load on the loco. I just do not feel like regurgitating the entire QSI manual every time wants to compare A to B to C. There are many things it does that the Phoenix does not.

Del, you are of course entitled to your opinion, but your decision to criticise rather than take a few seconds to research it makes it somewhat silly. The Quantum Engineer has 3 buttons each with a label. It’s MUCH simpler than more complex systems.

I personally use DCC, which most people view as the most complex system.

As I have said over and over there are many options for this person.

Unfortunately this thread seems to have disintegrated into whose idea is best. I think the user should make up his mind, by doing some reading and asking questions.

Final contribution: THERE ARE A LOT OF OPTIONS. I’M NOT PLAYING EXPERT OR TEACHER ON THIS ONE.

Greg

#18
Greg Elmassian said:
Del, you are of course entitled to your opinion, but your decision to criticise rather than take a few seconds to research it makes it somewhat silly. The Quantum Engineer has 3 buttons each with a label. It's MUCH simpler than more complex systems. Greg
OK. I took the time to look. Looks like 28 buttons. That should make things fairly easy to find. And it does look like there are some neat features.

One spec I find really odd (or just don’t understand) is the “Signal to Noise Ratio” of 1:1 ? Equal amounts of signal and noise?

#19

Greg.
It was you that suggested the QSI is a viable alternative to the Phoenix P2k2 for regular DC track power.
All I asked was for you to list the features that would make it so.
I suggest it is not really a viable alternative.
Well, not without puchasing something extra.
Don’t you think it would be helpful to list at least one or two of the QSI options that will enable the QSI to do something out of the box the Phoenix cannot do?
If you had answered the original legitimate questions in this thread you could have avoided “disintegrating” the thread.
The questions remain the same. Answers would be good. Not waffle.
But then I suppose it is hard to answer a question when a truthful answer would only result in QSI not measuring up to the P2k2 out of the box.
Once again I reiterate, I have no interest in either QSI or the P2k2 being better.
They are both great sound systems.
The bottom line is the QSI cannot ring the bell or blow the whistle/horn by using regular track magnets and reed switches.
They can only be activated by flipping a direction switch or by adding the Quantum engineer. Then, although you will have access to 28 sound functions you will be limited to about 2.5 amps max draw.
True?
Not true?

#20

<<Couldn’t I simply install the Phoenix system and use magnets on the axel just like my other two installations>>

Dean,
Absolutely you can!
It’s no different than installing a Phoenix in any other DC track powered loco.
I believe the K has pick-ups on the tender wheels for power. Just tap in there.
If not, put a couple Raymonds or Aristo wheels on with pick-ups.
I too, like Tony, have installed a whole passel of Phoenix in every brand there is.
jb