Large Scale Central

Informal Inaugural Ops Session

Craig Townsend said:

Devon Sinsley said: One thing I noticed at Dave’s was the long time operators had the waybills memorized. It would be nice to have new and random way bills for each session.

Hey, I can’t help it that I’ve been running at Dave’s for 15 years… That said in the real life some jobs do the same thing day after day, but other jobs have a variety. As I’m planning for Ops on the future layout, I’m aiming for randomized repeated variety (http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-wink.gif)(http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-surprised.gif)(http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-tongue-out.gif)(http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-yell.gif)

Craig,

You weren’t the only one, lol. But it did set me to thinking about the need for variety.

Great to see you up and officially running Ken! Looks like mother nature is already trying to take over the first parts you built with all those sprouts.

Devon, I think weather using JMRI or not sooner or later most of us reach the point that we know every operation or switching scenario on our layouts by heart. Until we lay some new track… ( why do think Andy is always building the B&S, he’s bored! )

Nice to see you back, Randy… (http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-sealed.gif)Hope all is well…

Just to clarify, (for people that don’t understand a joke), Am not really bored, am just trying to complete the initial plan… (http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-cool.gif)

Thanks Andy, Sometimes being a responsible adult means you don’t get much time for the fun stuff. Damn adulthood! (http://largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-foot-in-mouth.gif)

But don’t worry, you guys can’t get rid of me that easy. As long as I’m breathing I’ll be checking in here and playing with trains.

Randy Lehrian Jr. said:

As long as I’m breathing I’ll be checking in here and playing with trains.

As it should be… (http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-sealed.gif)

Randy Lehrian Jr. said:

…Sometimes being a responsible adult means you don’t get much time for the fun stuff. Damn adulthood! (http://largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-foot-in-mouth.gif)

But don’t worry, you guys can’t get rid of me that easy. As long as I’m breathing I’ll be checking in here and playing with trains.

Randy, I agree. Sometime life just gets in the way.

Devon Sinsley said:

Craig Townsend said:

Devon Sinsley said: One thing I noticed at Dave’s was the long time operators had the waybills memorized. It would be nice to have new and random way bills for each session.

Hey, I can’t help it that I’ve been running at Dave’s for 15 years… That said in the real life some jobs do the same thing day after day, but other jobs have a variety. As I’m planning for Ops on the future layout, I’m aiming for randomized repeated variety (http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-wink.gif)(http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-surprised.gif)(http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-tongue-out.gif)(http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-yell.gif)

Craig,

You weren’t the only one, lol. But it did set me to thinking about the need for variety.

Devon, the only real difference between the system Ken uses, and the one the Dave uses (and I emulate) is that Ken’s system ( JAMRI) specifies a car number, where Dave’s system doesn’t. In both systems, Glory Meat Packing have a daily requirement for X cold, empty, reefers, Y full stock cars, and Z empty gons for offal, and a requirement to pick up X full reefers, Y empty stock cars, and X full gons.

JAMRI requires that you deliver specific cars, and take away specific cars. Dave’s system requires deliver 2 cold reefers, 1 full stock car, and 1 empty gon, and pick up 2 full reefers, 1 empty S, and 1 gon. The work is the same.

Yeah I got that part. And I think Dave’s system is just fine. Dave’s just requires that the host of the ops sessions be vigilant in updating new scenarios to keep the operators from getting bored of the same old routines. Having a system that makes the routes for you randomly and then gives orders for setting them out just seems like a nice advantage to keeping things fresh and new. At least until as Randy says all scenarios have been played out.

Nothing wrong with Dave’s system at all. Just looking at a new tool to play with in all my spare time.

I think you will find that switching Glory will be the same, until the requirements change. I may be wrong, but I don’t think that the JAMRI guys have used it enough to get to where Craig is with 15 years experience.

The nice thing about JAMRI is that you can go in and change the requirements for Glory. If you want.

I do believe you make a good point Steve in that there are only so many ways you can do a thing. My layout will be small with limited industry. JMRI would likely be way overkill. If you were to route cars by number and run on very large layouts with many industries and several operators working in conjunction with one another then I could see the value.

I will likely tinker with it some day just because that sort of thing interests me. But I can see where it wouldn’t be for everyone and I can also see where guys would very much enjoy using it. I think what I have gathered is you will get out of it what you are willing to put into it.

Ken Brunt said:

Jon, I guess I could have done it that way, but since I had the time, I did the same thing you did. Built a train, checked the build logs, then terminated it, and so on. That seemed the easier way for me…(http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-wink.gif)

DOH - I never thought of just terminating the train. By running trains, I meant I actually moved cars around the layout for days!!!

Jon, I would have done the same thing if I had actually run a train physically on the layout. But at the time, the layout wasn’t even finished yet. Since the cars all started out in the same place (interchange) I wanted to see what cars they were moving and to where and for how long. And once that train was built, I terminated it and built the second train. Then terminated it, built the next two trains, checked the build logs again. It did seem rather tedious, but it also gave me a sense of what needed to be tweaked in the program. If there were cars that weren’t moving, I could edit the roster, and move a car to a location out on the layout, then see what happens with it.

What I like about the program is it has me looking for a specific car type and number to add to a train, that goes to a specific location, and that car may be in a string of 10 cars and be last car on that string, so I have to move 9 other cars to get to that one, to add it to my train. Just about all my industries get 2 or 3 different kinds of cars, I may have to pick up a tank car and drop off a boxcar in that particular siding. It’s not a like for like type thing. The sawmaill may get a tank car because their power plant runs on kerosene or fuel oil or whatever, and that car may sit there for a few days while they off load it. It just adds a bit more interest to the whole scenario.

Steve Featherkile said:

JAMRI requires that you deliver specific cars, and take away specific cars. Dave’s system requires deliver 2 cold reefers, 1 full stock car, and 1 empty gon, and pick up 2 full reefers, 1 empty S, and 1 gon. The work is the same.

In my experience, the work with JMRI is seldom the same. The first train may pick up a boxcar at B; drop a boxcar at B. Pick up a hopper from C and a hopper from D; drop a hopper at D. Arrives with 5 cars, departs with 6.

The next train arrives with 6 and leaves with 6. In the meantime, it picks up 2 boxcars from A, drops 2 boxcars at A. Picks up a boxcar from B. Pick up a hopper from C; drop a gon at C; Drop a reefer at E; drop a tank car at D.

Run it again, and it’s all different. Sometimes the spurs are full, other times not.

Bruce Chandler said:

Steve Featherkile said:

JAMRI requires that you deliver specific cars, and take away specific cars. Dave’s system requires deliver 2 cold reefers, 1 full stock car, and 1 empty gon, and pick up 2 full reefers, 1 empty S, and 1 gon. The work is the same.

In my experience, the work with JMRI is seldom the same. The first train may pick up a boxcar at B; drop a boxcar at B. Pick up a hopper from C and a hopper from D; drop a hopper at D. Arrives with 5 cars, departs with 6.

The next train arrives with 6 and leaves with 6. In the meantime, it picks up 2 boxcars from A, drops 2 boxcars at A. Picks up a boxcar from B. Pick up a hopper from C; drop a gon at C; Drop a reefer at E; drop a tank car at D.

Run it again, and it’s all different. Sometimes the spurs are full, other times not.

The same can be said for Dave’s system, depending on which of the more than twenty run sheets (way bills? ) you choose. What I suspect happens is that folks choose runs that they are familiar with, thereby removing any challenge. Since I’ve only run there 5 or 6 times, and drew a different sheet each time, each run has been a real head scratcher.

My first time at Dave’s’ I had to switch 3 sidings at a place called White Rock. It was raining. Hard. Typical for the Lake Washington area, but for this dry lander, a real gully washer. The GoreTex failed. At each of the three sidings, there were three cars. I had to pull an empty, at the far end of the siding. That meant that I had to pull all three to get my empty, replace the remaining two full cars, and add another full car, all without fouling the main with my train. Fortunately, there was a passing siding. One quirk. In order to switch out the fuel dealer, it was necessary to remove one car from the lumbaryard’s siding. Hmmmmm. White Rock only took me an hour.

White Rock was only one of six or seven stops.

After I finished the run, and returned my locomotive to the shed, I grabbed a cup of coffee and started to dry out a bit, Dave looked at me with that sly look of his and asked, “Did you have any trouble at White Rock?”

So, I’ve pondered my mistakes, sused out the secret to a White Rock (I think), but I have yet to return to fully switch out the place.

I’ve been to siding A and removed one car, two cars, no cars. Based on the length of the trains we run, it would be highly unusual to remove more than two cars, though I suppose it would be possible. The only thing that doesn’t happen at Dave’s is to search out a specific car in a string of cars. I’m not sure that I miss that. (http://largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-cool.gif)

Yeah, I remember the RAIN at Dave’s…plus it was about 38 degrees…but I did my 8 hours…(http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-laughing.gif)

The thing about Dave’s is that it is designed to accommodate LOTS of operators with VERY staggered start times. A LOT of work must have gone into his waybills to make each session function.

A typical Lake Washington light mist. Each of those out of focus white ghosts is a rain drop.

This is Mound House, the western terminus of the CCRY. As Dave tells it, the Colorado Consolidated Railway is a fictional consolidation of all the Colorado narrow gauge railroads. Since one of those planned to go all the way to the San Francisco Bay, it is not unusual to see White Pass rolling stock that have been barged down the Pacific Coast from Alaska. From Mound House, the CCRY goes west to San Francisco, but is not modeled.

I missed working in the rain when I was there, both times were nice, but only the one time was an operating session. It did look like that last picture, but that was from all the ceegar smoke…(http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-wink.gif)

Devon Sinsley said:

I do believe you make a good point Steve in that there are only so many ways you can do a thing. My layout will be small with limited industry. JMRI would likely be way overkill. If you were to route cars by number and run on very large layouts with many industries and several operators working in conjunction with one another then I could see the value.

I will likely tinker with it some day just because that sort of thing interests me. But I can see where it wouldn’t be for everyone and I can also see where guys would very much enjoy using it. I think what I have gathered is you will get out of it what you are willing to put into it.

Devon, please don’t let anything I’ve said dissuade you from trying out JAMRI. It is designed with the small layout in mind. Once you get yours set up, it might be quite worthwhile. Dave designed his system before there were any computer driven systems available. It took him quite a long time to assure that each waybill would work, and sometimes they don’t. sometimes you have to wait for your car to be delivered, or you just go on tho the next task and come back later.

Knowing our club as I do. I designed my trial run for 5 operators, 3 showed up, and it was fairly successful. Had there been more, I’m not sure what I could have done. JAMRI is usually done with just one or two operators, though it can be expanded. How much, I don’t know.

I’m laying in more industries, more sidings this year, so it will be more interesting.

Devon Sinsley said:

I do believe you make a good point Steve in that there are only so many ways you can do a thing. My layout will be small with limited industry. JMRI would likely be way overkill. If you were to route cars by number and run on very large layouts with many industries and several operators working in conjunction with one another then I could see the value.

I will likely tinker with it some day just because that sort of thing interests me. But I can see where it wouldn’t be for everyone and I can also see where guys would very much enjoy using it. I think what I have gathered is you will get out of it what you are willing to put into it.

How small? I have about 35 cars and 7 or 8 industries; 2 trains a day. I started by creating manual switch lists in MS Word. It didn’t take me long to wish for a more automated approach. I like to use JMRI because it gives me randomness with very little effort on my part.

Bruce Chandler said:

Devon Sinsley said:

I do believe you make a good point Steve in that there are only so many ways you can do a thing. My layout will be small with limited industry. JMRI would likely be way overkill. If you were to route cars by number and run on very large layouts with many industries and several operators working in conjunction with one another then I could see the value.

I will likely tinker with it some day just because that sort of thing interests me. But I can see where it wouldn’t be for everyone and I can also see where guys would very much enjoy using it. I think what I have gathered is you will get out of it what you are willing to put into it.

How small? I have about 35 cars and 7 or 8 industries; 2 trains a day. I started by creating manual switch lists in MS Word. It didn’t take me long to wish for a more automated approach. I like to use JMRI because it gives me randomness with very little effort on my part.

And 2 of us can spend a couple of hours out there…on just the first train. Of course a lot of that has to do with how Bruce has his layout set up. Facing point moves, trailing point moves, you can spend quite a few minutes trying to figure how to get car A into siding B. Diabolical is how one guy described it…(http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-wink.gif)