Large Scale Central

Indoor Layout Grades / Ramps / Multi-level layouts

Indoor and Micro
#1

I often see folks giving advice to minimize grades and I see many layouts that are perfectly flat with

little or no grades at all. Some tout their layouts are laser leveled with a 0% grade throughout.

I may be looking for trouble but I’m thinking to build some significant grades into my layout and

I’m wondering if others have done this in their indoor layouts.

A little ways from me is a city that was famous for running trains through the streets until they were

raised above the streets in a massive engineering project. Today there is still evidence of the ramps that

appear to have allowed trains from the raised railroad to get back down to street level and some of these

ramps appear to be quite steep. At one time there were also trolleys running the streets.

So I’m thinking I’d like to model trains at the street level and on a raised bed on one side of my

layout and then on the other end morph this into running through the streets with a subway below.

So the street level track next to the raised roadbed would eventually become the subway on the other

side of the layout.

While the levels will likely run independently most of the time I’d like to be able to run trains up and

down between the levels. This is where the ramps / grades come in.

I’m not planning to run long trains like some individuals do on their 0% laser-leveled layouts. The four

engine lash-ups with 200 hundred cars is out of my scope of operation or interest.

So I’m interested in hearing from anyone and seeing pictures and details from folks that have violated

the first rule of laying track with 0-1% grade.

The other “question” I need help with is determining how much I can do with trains that enter the

basement through a window 7’ off the ground. I’d like to integrate this into the indoor layout but

realize I may need to compromise with having a “storage” yard at the 7’ level and my indoor layout

at a much lower level.

I look forward to hearing more about what others have tried with regard to moving trains up and

down levels in their layouts.

Thanks in advance.

#2

Your idea sounds interesting but I would warn you about grades.
My RR is outdoors in a sloped yard so grade was a challenge for me when building. I had to really lenghten some of the runs by many yards to keep the grade under 3% . I usually don’t run trains over 8 cars and usually keep it to 4-5. I don’t like to stress my engines and keep in mind when going around a curve up grade it puts even more stress on the engine. Also going down grade with several cars in tow can put stress where you don’t want it.

To help meet your 7’ window you could raise your bench. Trains look really good near chest or even eye level but keep in mind you will have to reach across your table at some time.

If you are along a back wall and have some room you could use switch backs like the real RR’s to get down to your train table.

Overall you really can’t beat the physics of a tall grade. You could go with a rack or cog system which would help.
Just some ideas. Good luck

#3

David,

The 1:1 boys in NA try to keep grades to 2.2% max. to run their long trains. Since most LS railroaders won’t be running 140 to 180 car trains — there is a convention that once you’re past 25 cars on a model railroad it is just “a long train” i.e. hard to tell how long it is. With a few exceptions most LS modelers have trouble to get to that train length and have two trains of that length meet somewhere on the single track line. Max grade of 3% works for me and train length is restricted to what the prototype would run on 3.5%.

By the sounds of it you plan on building an urban scene. There are/were plenty of instances in NA where railroads tackled some real grades to reach industrial connections.

You could have relatively easy transitions between the levels hidden behind false front buildings, have the really steep ramps closer to the front going down to a switching district. The trick is you use the steep ramp to get down and the gentler (hidden) grade to get back up. There’s many ways to do things, this is one of them.

:slight_smile: :wink:

#4

If I plan to run trains under the raised roadbed them I’m likely looking at a 10" space above the

rails (recommended by others but need to do more research) so the rails would likely be 12"

offset vertically from each other. For a 2% grade I would need 50 feet.

I agree that a more gradual grade up is important when I will have multiple ramps for moving

between levels. I guess my design goal will be to minimize the grade as much as possible.

Others have said (in various posts) that steep grades also look strange or out-of-place on large

scale layouts so I was thinking of hiding steep grades behind walls or under scenery. I’m still

trying to figure out right-of-ways and how I’m going to finish the basement so there may be

some right-of-ways through walls. These might be a good place to hide awkward grades (with

adequate access).

I really like the Dunkirk Allegany Valley and Pittsburgh large scale layout where they utilize helper

engines to climb 22". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxCl0DbOe9s I really enjoyed this series of

videos and this one shows the climb with a helper. Sean also built an elevator at one point.

#5

you will need a lot of space (lengthwise), if you want to come down from seven foot to about three foot.
i would not recommend more than five or six % of grade. (meaning a rise of about 2" per 3’)
for a short train. in my case LGB stainz locos plus motorized tender (each raised in weight to four pounds) with ten to twelve aixles drawn.

here some impressions how i raise and lower track for my two storey layout.

http://kormsen.info/tracks/

here, how it looks.

(http://kormsen.info/landscape/background/background08.JPG)

(and how to build that type of bridge)

http://kormsen.info/bridges/

#6

Korm,

Excellent! Your site is an inspiration. I’ll be spending more time on your site when I have time.

Some of the bridge and track work you’ve done is very nice. I’ve got some newbie questions on

track that I’ll post in a different thread.

I found some links to Tom Miller’s layout and I’m thinking to hire his guys. Hah! Actually his layout

has convinced me that potentially incorporating my high sections with landscaping might be an option.

I was planning to try and decorate the inside of passages and tunnels since I’m thinking to use cameras

on the locomotives…

In reality I’m trying to avoid having the railroad expand to fill the entire basement but there maybe

some longer runs between the outdoor and indoor layout that could serve a secondary purpose of moving

trains between levels.

BTW: The video at the bottom of you http://kormsen.info/tracks/ page doesn’t exist.

David

#7

David Fielding said:

BTW: The video at the bottom of you http://kormsen.info/tracks/ page doesn’t exist.

thanks. ive been lazy lately. that is a frequent problem with these clips i put on every site. very now and then they get erased for some reason, or the other.

#8

Perhaps I missed it, what are the dimensions of the room you plan to build in? Do you have a proper footprint of the space, including windows and door locations, along with all that other stuff that “gets in the way”?

#9

I will gather some measurements. My problem is more the lack of walls and doors right now.

Our basement is quite large (25’x55’) but we also need to fit a family room, office, workshop,

bathroom, plus trains. Lots of ideas and few existing walls to restrict them. I’ll looks for something

to sketch the space. Maybe this will help. Many of the ‘research’ questions I’ve been asking so

far are to give me a sense for what’s possible/practical. I would like to design the “finished” space

in such a way as to permit the trains to move around without imposing on these spaces.

#10

David,

That sounds like a “clean slate” i.e. you can move anything to where it will fit your layout plan.

#11

David,

Roger Cutter’s old RGS East layout had some 3-4% hills, just as the real R.G.S. did. When we ran track power, I used my battery-powered 4-6-0 as a ‘pusher’ (which amazed the track power guys - I could add it or cut off at the top of the hill and return to the bottom any time I wanted.) There are lots of photos if you search these sites for RGSEast. Here’s a video of my live steamer starting 11 hoppers on the hill:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4wKet2wX9k

Re: basement links. There was a thread recently about the ‘lift’ that switchcrafters built to handle a vertical storage stack.
http://www.switchcrafters.com/ElevatorSystem.html The same principle could work for trains coming in from the garden and then dropping to a lower level.
[P.S. Switchcrafters made themselves a custom lift motor. I pointed out that marine boat lift motors do the same thing and are available used. I’d look for a jet ski lift. ]

Re: Indoor layout.
Sounds like you need to put the finished space in the middle, and run trains around the outside. Put up walls with 45 deg corners about 3’ out and you will have plenty of RR space!

#12

Pete,

“Sounds like you need to put the finished space in the middle, and run trains around the outside. Put up walls with 45 deg corners about 3’ out and you will have plenty of RR space!”

You’ve been reading my mind. I’ve been thinking about reserving space outside the finished space

along the walls to allow trains to pass. I’m debating whether to shorten the room instead of doing

angled corners since subsequent owners may not want a RR and the angled corners may

appear strange. I’d like to avoid the “you gotta fix this before I buy”.

Since some if these hidden runs may be long I’m thinking to include a ramp (or at least some grade)

to make later elevation changes smoother.

I’d also like to build an enclosed (to reduce dust) bookshelf-like structure into the office wall or

above a fireplace mantle (maybe just a dream) that some trains could be parked in when not

running. I often hear folks refer to trains they’ve displayed as “dusty” so I’m thinking a section of

enclosed track might reduce this issue.

I’ll have to float HJ’s idea about building the finished space around the railroad to ‘the boss’

and see where that gets me. The couch I suspect. I expect the branch line to the kitty litter boxes

will convince everyone these are not toys. :^)

David

#13

David,

Over on the AR Forum we ponder the balancing act on practically every layout (in any scale), 90% of the “problem” is the sales job that is required.

Here is a typical example (right from our house).

I asked SWMBO if she had any ideas how we could tackle the space problem. My suggestion was the drop section and tunneling through the wall into the pantry. Total gain 8.5ft.

:slight_smile:

That was out.

Her suggestion was building an island in the middle of the aisle where the milling machine and the long workbench is located with a flip-up walk-through.

I sketched it up and she knew it was going to be as inconvenient and impractical as could be.

:wink:

Next step was what is now reality, the nod-under has pipe insulation bumpers and we’re in business.

:slight_smile: :slight_smile:

#14

[i]" Since some if these hidden runs may be long I’m thinking to include a ramp (or at least some grade)

to make later elevation changes smoother.

I’d also like to build an enclosed (to reduce dust) bookshelf-like structure"[/i]

David,

Nice idea though, isn’t it. But I take your point about the corners - maybe you could make 90 degree corners with a fake inner wall, so when the trains that tunnel through in order to maintain their 10’ radius curves are removed, the fake wall comes down and the room looks ‘normal’.

Or just put right angle corner intrusions, as if there was a built-in closet. No-one will look for the door! The walls could be a mere 2’ away from the wall, giving you room to put a descending slope from the garden and to get in for maintenance, but otherwise the track would be hidden and not sceniced.

There have been long discussions about using a helix to drop a few feet - the On3/On30 guys do it a lot as they build multi-level, multi-baseboard railroads. See the current NG&SL Gazette. That would work if you decide to just use one end of the room.

But if you have 55’, you can drop a long way at 3% - 18" or so is easy. If you can get around the two end corners and back along the other side you are down by at least 4’, and your benchwork wouldn’t be 3’ high.

Yes, my display shelves have very dusty trains on them.

#15

Pete,

Dusty trains. Sounds like you need to build one of these

(http://blog.defgrip.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/nyc_subway_history_14.jpg)

I’m sure the guy working on the blower car could put one of these car washes together…

David

#16

David if you have a 55’ wall you have plenty of room to model a switch back.

I like the idea of a ceiling mounted train that could skirt the walls and go through all the rooms including the bathroom. Along that long wall you could drop elevation.

I wouldn’t bother going crazy detailing the inside of tunnels except for maybe the first foot. In my experience my camera goes black as it tries to adjust to the darkness of the tunnel and then coming out the bright sunlight blinds it as it adjusts again. I don’t get to see much of the interior of my long tunnel except that time I mounted a flashlight trying ot find a bat I thought was roosting inside.

I don’t wash my trains the I call the Dust realistic weathering.

Happy RRing

#17

David,

To get a better idea, here’s the footprint of your basement.

(http://www.rhb-grischun.ca/NA-Fora/DFRoomSize.jpg)

Questions are:

Where is the entrance?

Where are the windows?

Where are the utilities?

How large a family room?

Where are the rough-ins for the bathroom?

How large an office?

Which side is the garden (RR)?

How much you can go up and down pretty well depends on all of the above.

:wink: :slight_smile:

#18

Hi David,

I have switchbacks and inclines maxing out at 8% in my basement running with geared engines. Works without problems.

I found some pictures and former posts about some of this in an Article I wrote years ago.

Hope it helps.

http://www.largescalecentral.com/articles/101/Rebuilding-the-Timesaver-on-the-KVRwy

#19

Ric,

Thanks for the link. I would have never found this browsing for indoor/modular layouts given

the title. This is more along the lines of what I want to do indoors (so I can take it with me) than

what I’ve been able to find. Once I find some time to read this I will line up my questions. Does

the latest version in the article still exist or have you moved on to the next version?

At some point I’d like to put together an intro page for indoor/micro/modular with links and such

to go along with the forum and your layout would definitely be highlighted on there.

Thanks

#20

Yes, it still exists.

It is currently part of our trackage in the basement.

In November, it will be at a Train Show is Collinsville, Illinois as a switching yard on the Gateway Garden Railroad Club modular layout. And then the entire month of December it is at the Oliver C. Joseph Chrylser Dealership in Belleville, Illinois with the same layout. We will set it up at the ECLSTS as an independent layout in York, PA at the end of March, 2014.

We can haul the whole thing in the back of a Chrysler Town and Country mini van.