Hi all,
Hmmmmmmm… just discovered a thread on “Gauge/Scale in LS” topic.
Wow… talk about turning something very simple into a big thread (so far 5 pages!).
Note to Steve Featherkile: Yes Steve; 1:32 on 45mm track is the correct scale. 45mm x 32 = 1440mm which is a scant 4.9mm error. 
since 4ft 8.5" equals 1435.1mm.
Yes, 1.000" = 25.4mm!
Now to be 101% correct the scale would need to be 1:31.888; not very practical if you ask me, I guess the standards people came to a similar conclusion. 
Thats why I build everything by eye, a scale ruler is only good for cutting straight lines.
I’ve always said there are 3 ways to do something…the right way, the wrong way…and my way…
No problem, guys!
Whatever floats your boat, I was also amused that when the ratio gets larger than 1:1, someone terms it 1:0.5
Stuff like that really makes me wonder if these guys ever had a look in a technical manual.
Any time the ratio increases it is expressed in the inverse i.e. 2:1 or whatever.
Of course people are confused about all this “technical stuff”, more so if a lot of perfectly illogical garbage gets regurgitated.
Fundamentals are called for!
Or a bit of give and take…
Rod,
Good point, unfortunately no amount of give or take makes incorrect information more correct.
HJ
Unlike you I don’t know everything and I freely admit my ignorance in many things, I also make many mistakes.
However unlike you, I do seem to possess the decency to extend fellow human beings the common courtesy of not making fun of or deriding them because of their ignorance or mistakes made.
Regardless, I do thank you for pointing out my shortcomings and mistakes.
Respectfully
Steve Conkle
Steve Conkle said:
HJUnlike you I don’t know everything and I freely admit my ignorance in many things, I also make many mistakes.
However unlike you, I do seem to possess the decency to extend fellow human beings the common courtesy of not making fun of or deriding them because of their ignorance or mistakes made.
Regardless, I do thank you for pointing out my shortcomings and mistakes.
Respectfully
Steve Conkle
To mimick/paraphrase the former Secretary of Defense:
There are things you know, there are things I know, there are things neither one of us knows etc. etc.
But one thing I know is that my note
HJ said:was to Steve Featherkile in regards to his
Note to Steve Featherkile: Yes Steve; 1:32 on 45mm track is the correct scale. 45mm x 32 = 1440mm which is a scant 4.9mm error. since 4ft 8.5" equals 1435.1mm. Yes, 1.000" = 25.4mm!
StefeF on MLS said:As regards the rest, it is very simple:
Really, the only true to scale/gauge models are the 1:20.3, the 1:22.5 if done correctly, and some of the 1:24, again, if done correctly. Neither 1:29 nor 1:32 are true to scale/gauge.
Scale = the ratio of the dimensions of an existing object to the dimensions of a model there of. The model can be smaller than the original in which case the model is a fraction of the original i.e. 1:22.5 or 1/22.5. The model can also be larger than the original in which case the model is a muliple of the original i.e. 2:1 or 2/1.
Gauge (as it applies to railway track): the distance between the two parallel running rail heads.
Note: since model railway track is also a model; to be correct, the gauge should be the identical scale as the scale of the rolling stock running on that track.
BTW that’s how I would pare it down to the fundamentals, I didn’t take the time to look up the definitions.
Personally, I believe this article should be left where it is…MLS. I see no need to drag something from there over to here just for the sole purpose of stirring the pot. If you would note, Steve has this in a “test” group where he’s writing something…and asking for help. I say, let them do the editing over there…not here. This is something he hopes to bring to the beginners once he has all the bugs out of it. Most of us here have been through this time and time again and we are set in our ways…unlikely to change any time soon.
Sorry, HJ but that’s the way I feel.
Warren Mumpower said:
Personally, I believe this article should be left where it is...MLS. I see no need to drag something from there over to here just for the sole purpose of stirring the pot. If you would note, Steve has this in a "test" group where he's writing something....and asking for help. I say, let them do the editing over there...not here. This is something he hopes to bring to the beginners once he has all the bugs out of it. Most of us here have been through this time and time again and we are set in our ways...unlikely to change any time soon.Sorry, HJ but that’s the way I feel.
Still no problem, I was just wondering aloud how something that simple can be turned into something that complicated. That’s all.
It’s been that complicated ever since Lewis Polk invented 1:29 scale and fueled by LGB’s “goofy guage” 1:27. It’s been hashed over and over and over and we’re stuck with it and everyone’s interpretation. :? And we will argue ourselves silly over couplers until hell freezes over too. It just seems to go with the territory. 
From all appearances, I believe the hobby/market is heading for a self correction which is based solely on sales. Now what this means to you & me is completely up to speculation. We could debate this for days, but other than raise some dander between some of us, nothing will be solved. The truth is: you & I are in the driver’s seat…based on what we buy…determines what will be made. Manufacturer suggestion boxes with our comments are only marginally effective…The Old Adage: Money talks…BS walks…still applies.
If you want change, you must get the majority of the Biggie Size Train buyers to:
I say “Good Luck”…you can’t even get the few here to run their railways in the same direction.
It boils down to one point: Who will care in 200 years!
The Lone Railroader said:
....................................................It boils down to one point: Who will care in 200 years!
That is quite true, however I really doubt there will be a new definition for Scale or Gauge in the next 200 years.
My point was/is: get the fundamentals right and everyone can figure out the rest himself. Until such time as humanity starts calculating in more than the three dimensions, it isn’t rocket science!
Hans-Joerg Mueller said:The Lone Railroader said:
....................................................It boils down to one point: Who will care in 200 years!
Marvin,That is quite true, however I really doubt there will be a new definition for Scale or Gauge in the next 200 years.
My point was/is: get the fundamentals right and everyone can figure out the rest himself. Until such time as humanity starts calculating in more than the three dimensions, it isn’t rocket science!
I guess you can blame LGB. They started with Biggie Size European Style Narrow Gauge on 45mm track at 1:22.5…when they transitioned to American Style Trains as the U.S. Market grew, LGB never resized. Then the others that followed Aristo, Bachmann, Delton, Kalamazoo, USA Trains, etc. chose another size to run on 45mm track, probably to prevent any copyright infringement lawsuits from LGB. MTH sized to the 1:32 but it does not have the “WOW” factor associated with Large Scale and you might as well run 0, instead.
No current company appears to want to retool for an accurate rendition of scale or gauge, except Bachmann who is making some inroads in that direction for 1:20.3. And 1:29 seems to be the defacto size for American Standard Gauge Trains.
Where does that leave us??..More coupler/scale wars with no solution???..So it just goes back to my original statement, “Who will care in 200 years!”
I have to agree with one of your points.
Coming from HO and N scale, had a slight case of rivet-itus!
Have always run standard gauge locos, so went bonkers about 10 years ago when nothing matched!
Did not want NG stuff, then noticed LGB stuff looked funny, shortened, compressed. Then started looking at 1:29 and the sideframes were so narrow!
Backed up and wanted to go “scale”, but at that time, no 1:32 except custom and Aster! ouch.
Then MTH came out and agonized again.
Finally, put one of each on the ground, where my railway was. You are right, from my perspective (6’ 2"), might as well run O as 1:32 outside. No wow factor.
So, I had some mental surgery, and the rivet-counting part of my brain was bypassed. I’m a happy guy, and can go “scale crazy” with my Z scale stuff if need be!
Regards, Greg
The Lone Railroader said:
HJI guess you can blame LGB. They started with Biggie Size European Style Narrow Gauge on 45mm track at 1:22.5…when they transitioned to American Style Trains as the U.S. Market grew, LGB never resized. Then the others that followed Aristo, Bachmann, Delton, Kalamazoo, USA Trains, etc. chose another size to run on 45mm track, probably to prevent any copyright infringement lawsuits from LGB. MTH sized to the 1:32 but it does not have the “WOW” factor associated with Large Scale and you might as well run 0, instead.
No current company appears to want to retool for an accurate rendition of scale or gauge, except Bachmann who is making some inroads in that direction for 1:20.3. And 1:29 seems to be the defacto size for American Standard Gauge Trains.
Where does that leave us??..More coupler/scale wars with no solution???..So it just goes back to my original statement, “Who will care in 200 years!”
That isn’t my point at all, what I challenge is the presumption that the “Scale/Gauge question” is quite complicated.
Well it isn’t!
It is very simple!
The complications start when one tries to justify mismatches of “Scale to Gauge” relations.
To which I say: get the “Scale and Gauge Fundamentals” straight. What follows after that is up to the inividual, just don’t try to complicate the issue.
One may say 1:29 on 45mm looks very good, but that doesn’t circumvent the fact that it is mismatched.
Nor does the WOW factor fix or mitigate any of those mismatches in any of the “Goofy” scales.
BTW, why do you think I coined the phrase “G - wie Gummi” ??
Hans-Joerg Mueller said:The Lone Railroader said:
HJI guess you can blame LGB. They started with Biggie Size European Style Narrow Gauge on 45mm track at 1:22.5…when they transitioned to American Style Trains as the U.S. Market grew, LGB never resized. Then the others that followed Aristo, Bachmann, Delton, Kalamazoo, USA Trains, etc. chose another size to run on 45mm track, probably to prevent any copyright infringement lawsuits from LGB. MTH sized to the 1:32 but it does not have the “WOW” factor associated with Large Scale and you might as well run 0, instead.
No current company appears to want to retool for an accurate rendition of scale or gauge, except Bachmann who is making some inroads in that direction for 1:20.3. And 1:29 seems to be the defacto size for American Standard Gauge Trains.
Where does that leave us??..More coupler/scale wars with no solution???..So it just goes back to my original statement, “Who will care in 200 years!”
Marvin,That isn’t my point at all, what I challenge is the presumption that the “Scale/Gauge question” is quite complicated.
Well it isn’t!
It is very simple!
The complications start when one tries to justify mismatches of “Scale to Gauge” relations.
To which I say: get the “Scale and Gauge Fundamentals” straight. What follows after that is up to the inividual, just don’t try to complicate the issue.One may say 1:29 on 45mm looks very good, but that doesn’t circumvent the fact that it is mismatched.
Nor does the WOW factor fix or mitigate any of those mismatches in any of the “Goofy” scales.BTW, why do you think I coined the phrase “G - wie Gummi” ??
Most are happy to run out of the box…Of the regular posters on these train websites (who number in the hundreds)…there are thousands that don’t give a flip about these chat forums and sites…read Garden Railways and operate their trains in peace.
I used to get into these debates…Now, I don’t give a flip…Everybody is going to do what they want anyway…so why bother with it…The best advice that I can give anyone for the New Year is: Find your niche and just have fun.
Greg Elmassian said:
........................................................................Did not want NG stuff, then noticed LGB stuff looked funny, shortened, compressed. Then started looking at 1:29 and the sideframes were so narrow!
Backed up and wanted to go “scale”, but at that time, no 1:32 except custom and Aster! ouch.
Then MTH came out and agonized again.
…
So, I had some mental surgery, and the rivet-counting part of my brain was bypassed. I’m a happy guy, and can go “scale crazy” with my Z scale stuff if need be!
Regards, Greg
But you knew how to calculate the proper scale to run on 45mm track in order to represent 4ft8.5" (1435mm) track on the proto!
That’s my whole point!
If it’s too large or too small for one’s WOW factor hunger is a different story. If one needs to count rivets is a different story again.
BTW I don’t think that calculating a correct scale falls into the rivet-counting category. Whoever came up with the concept of math had it down to much closer than +/- 10% right from the start. A fact that is astonishing considering how long ago that happened and how our civilization “advanced” since.
The Lone Railroader said:
HJMost are happy to run out of the box…Of the regular posters on these train websites (who number in the hundreds)…there are thousands that don’t give a flip about these chat forums and sites…read Garden Railways and operate their trains in peace.
I used to get into these debates…Now, I don’t give a flip…Everybody is going to do what they want anyway…so why bother with it…The best advice that I can give anyone for the New Year is: Find your niche and just have fun.
Fine, no argument.
This isn’t a debate about finding a niche, I’ve had my RhB proto niche for the last 30 years.
My quibble relates strictly to the unnecessary complications of stating the obvious:
Scale = ratio of original to model (can be larger or smaller)
Gauge = distance between heads of two parallel rails forming a track.
It just doesn’t get any simpler, everything else flows from that, you can cut and slice it in any way you like.
Hans-Joerg Mueller said:The Lone Railroader said:
HJMost are happy to run out of the box…Of the regular posters on these train websites (who number in the hundreds)…there are thousands that don’t give a flip about these chat forums and sites…read Garden Railways and operate their trains in peace.
I used to get into these debates…Now, I don’t give a flip…Everybody is going to do what they want anyway…so why bother with it…The best advice that I can give anyone for the New Year is: Find your niche and just have fun.
Marvin,Fine, no argument.
This isn’t a debate about finding a niche, I’ve had my RhB proto niche for the last 30 years.
My quibble relates strictly to the unnecessary complications of stating the obvious:
Scale = ratio of original to model (can be larger or smaller)
Gauge = distance between heads of two parallel rails forming a track.
It just doesn’t get any simpler, everything else flows from that, you can cut and slice it in any way you like.