Large Scale Central

In need of battery advice

Electronics Power and Sound
#1

Well, it’s finally happened – I’m getting sick of cleaning track. Also, as I add more buildings to the layout, it’s going to be harder to reach some areas of track. So… I need some battery advice.

For my Ten Wheeler, I plan to put the batteries in the tender, removable via the oil bunker. Same with any future steam locos, including the Porter conversions I have planned. There’s not enough room in my RS-3 for internal batteries, so I think I’ll put them in a gondola, covered by a fake load. That should make it easy to charge or swap out the batteries.

What type of batteries should I get? Here’s what I’d like:

  1. Compact.

  2. Easy to charge and maintain, and doesn’t have to be run completely dry before recharging.

  3. No “memory” issues.

  4. Easy to obtain.

  5. Good run time (3-4 hours), on my layout with steep grades and tight curves. Trains are kept pretty short.

What do you suggest? Is there anything else I need to know?

#2

Ah, welcome to the Dark Side…:wink:

That was one of my issues, too. Keeping the track clean, and fixing electrical connections.

I use both NiMh and LiOn battery packs and the only problem I had with the NiHm was from NOT using it enough and it went bad, wouldn’t charge back up and had to be replaced.

The K-27 has a 14.8V 5200 mah LiOn battery pack and I’ve run that engine all day quite a few times without a recharge (and that’s a big, heavy engine).

The 10 wheelers all have 14.4V 2800 mah NiMh packs in them and again, I don’t remember ever running them down, but maybe once or twice, and that was at an all day operating session up at Fred’s.

The LiOn packs are about half the size of the NiHm packs. I just replaced a NiMh pack with a LiOn pack in my Shay and managed to fit the LiOn pack in the tender whereas the NiMh pack was was in 2 parts, one in the firebox and the other half under the tender.

What I do on a recommendation from Don Sweet, my RC supplier, is mount the charging jack on the back of the tender. That way, if the battery does run down, I can plug in a battery car and keep going. All my engines have sound cards in them, so the On/Off switch, and Volume controls are mounted under the coal load, which lifts off, and with the speaker mounted right under them, I have no access to the batteries for swapping them out.

Just make sure the chargers you use are compatible with the battery pack. I have 3 smart chargers that will work with just about any type battery, NiMh, LiOn, Nicad, etc. I have mine set up in a tool box I bought at Lowes so I can take it with me on my travels, and have everything I need right there.

I’m sure you’ll get plenty of good advice from the bat, R/C gurus here…everyone has their preferences.

#3

An answer…And a suggestion I’ll likely be shot for…

I used the Aristo 21.5, 2 amp packs because they were small, cheap, and plentiful. I can run single packs or wire two in parallel and have a 21.5v 4-amp pack for less than the cost of a similar high-capacity pack while preserving the voltage I was used to. Now that Cordless Revolutions has a replacement pack I have a new drop-in replacement.

Keep your track power, at least on one section. No doubt someone will chime in on the evils of one system over another, never understood that line of thinking. Granted, my layout is small so it’s easier for me but what happens when that kid comes over with his new track-powered engine and wants to see it run? Or a buddy stops by asking for help fixing his latest ebay acquisition?

All systems make sense in one way or another and all are welcome on my lay-out. Why limit yourself to one?

Edit: I get about 2.0 - 2.5 hours on a 21.5/2amp pack running my 2-6-6-0 in a battery car. I have not timed it with the 2nd parallel back yet as I just installed it.

#4

I echo the suggestion for Lithium Ion.

I HAVE put a 14.8v battery pack in my RS-3, along with a Revo and Phoenix sound - so there IS room. I did take out the smoke unit, since I wasn’t using it.

It’s not enough just to have batteries. What are you planning on using for your controller?

#5

I started with regular NIMH batteries in a battery car, however, I switched to Lithium-ion batteries as I installed batteries into my locomotives…

My installation wiring depends on the locomotive… GP-40’s, I run the wires up under the dynamic brake cover where I can plug and unplug them into the locomotive… I unplug them and plug them to the charger… GP-38 batteries instalations have a charging jack and a swtich for charging and run mode… The batteries still need to be charged while not being hooked up to the engines motors and such…

My RDC’s are set up so I can easily lift off the exhaust roof dome, and install an aristo 21 volt lithium-ion battery in the RDC and plug iit in…

I also remove the smoke units from the engines, because I don’t use them…

Most of my batteries are either aristo 21 volt, 2 amp batteries, or 14.8 volt, 6200 amp batteries in my GP-40;s GP-38’s, SD-45’s and SD-40-2’s…

Batteries in the diesel’s are usually installed in the fuel tanks.

Edited to add: My controllers are Aristo Revolutions… Before that I used Aristo train engineers’, both 27 & 75 MHZ…

#6

Over the last twenty years I have used Ni-Cads, NiMH, and lithium-ion battery packs. I like the lithium-ion packs the best because they are smaller, lighter, easier to maintain, and provide good run times.

All my engines have the Aristo-Craft lithium-ion packs in them, but they are not always available. Several members have tried Cordless Renovations lithium-ion battery packs, but found that delivery of the product was often slow. We now use Mega Batteries for 14.8 volt, lithium-ion batteries, but unfortunately they do not sell a 22.2 volt pack at this time.

A 14.8 volt battery pack is suitable for your 10 wheeler. The motor in them have a low draw and will run a long time on a 4-cell pack.

I use 22.2 volt packs in my diesels and Pacific. I have never run down a pack in our weekly Saturday morning railway operations. They can be restored to full charge in about an hour.

The easiest way to start in battery power is with a trailing power car or tender. That is simply a car or tender with both a battery pack and radio control receiver hooked to the locomotive with a 2-wire plug set from All Electronics. The easiest car to use is an Aristo-Craft covered gondola. The cover can be removed to access the battery pack and receiver, but will hide and protect the components. The ends can also be folded down to provide cooling air.

(http://ovgrs.editme.com/files/GondolaPC/Car2.jpg)

The car shown is a little dated because it uses the 27 MHz receiver which is now longer available. Our members now use the Revolution receiver or Revolution receiver with sound instead.

There are numerous articles on both power cars and locomotives in the Battery Power and Radio Section of our club web site. http://ovgrs.editme.com/BPIndex

The 10 wheeler article is a little dated because it uses a 75 MHz receiver and NIMH packs. It will be replaced this summer with an article using a 14.8 volt lithium-ion pack and Revolution receiver with steam sounds.

The Bachmann consolidation article may be closer to what you are interested in. It uses a 14.8 volt lithium-ion battery pack, Revolution receiver, and Phoenix Sound 2K2.

(http://ovgrs.editme.com/files/Connie/Battery4.jpg)

(http://ovgrs.editme.com/files/Connie/Wiring18.jpg)

#7

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I also like the Lith-Ion batteries.

I started with one 14.8v 2800 mah in my Bachmann K-27 and I got just over 2 hours of run time. That is running pretty steep grades on my layout. I have an area where its 4.5% for about 25 ft. I added another 14.8v 2800 mah pack and I get over 4hrs. I’ve only ever ran it down once when I was timing how long I get between charges, I rarely run for 4hrs.

#8

Ray - I’ll add my vote for Li-Ion.

One downside is that when they go dead they do it in a hurry; they turn off. Some R/C makers (RailBoss for one) have a system to warn you that a Li-Ion is about to shut down. The locos that I have on-board batteries in have older boards without that feature and have both have run out of fuel out on the layout. This could be a problem if it happens in a tunnel.

To counter-act this problem you can charge a Li-Ion before it is completely run-down. It won’t hurt the pack, but every charge counts against the number of cycles you can get from a pack. That’s why I wait until mine shut down before recharging.

#9

Sorry Ray …no help on my end cause what I chose to run but track power has a dark side as well and we want you back! Make a battery powered track cleaning car!!!

(http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx323/Learstang/TheDarkSideHasCookies_zpsa4e69b2a.jpg)

#10

Once you get to know how your loco performs, you’ll know when the batteries are about to go flat. Mine get very lethargic about 10 minutes before the packs shut themselves down. (Doesn’t mean I pull them, mind you, but at least I know they’re going to shut down.) And–yes–Murphy does apply his legal theories to where these batteries die. Fortunately on my railroad, there aren’t any inaccessable places, but the back corner under the thorny primrose bush seems to be one of his favorites.

As I wrote elsewhere, I–like others here–am sold on the Li-Ion technology. I converted in 2009, and for a “stated” capacity, performance far exceeds that of NiCads or NiMH batteries. Shelf life is great–they don’t self-discharge, which is important for locos with built-in batteries. You can run them for an hour or so, and know that even if you don’t run the loco again for 6 months, it will still be charged for a decent run.

Later,

K

#11

Thanks everyone, for all the very helpful advice! I have a pretty good idea now of what I need, now I just need to find the time to make the switch.

We’re on the layout tour for the National Narrow Gauge Convention at the end of August, so I need to either do the conversions before then, or wait until afterwards. Yeah, that’s a few months from now but I’m slower’n molasses, and have a lot of other projects to get done as well. The RS-3 isn’t a problem but the 4-6-0 will need to be disassembled. If I’m doing that, I also want to do some custom detailing and paint work on it, which may take a while.

What I might do is convert one of my LGB Porters instead. I could take as much time as I want with that, and still be able to run the 4-6-0 on track power if I don’t get the Porter done in time.

#12

Well, this afternoon I finally sat down and started trying to sort out the wiring in my Bachmann 4-6-0 tender. Not an easy task since it already has Phoenix sound installed as well as additional track pickups on the tender and on the pilot truck – all done by someone else before I bought it. Anyway…

I was reading the Revo manual and noticed that they recommend installing a 3-amp fuse between the battery and the Revo. What’s the best way to do this? Should I use the old fashioned glass tube fuses, or the automotive type? Or does it matter?

#13

I used a glass fuse years ago in an Annie battery power and radio control installation.

(http://ovgrs.editme.com/files/Annie/Fuse.jpg)

The pins of the fuse holder protruded slightly through the bottom of the frame so the fuse could be tested for continuity with a multi-meter. But the shell had to be removed (4 screws) to replace the fuse.

In a recent Connie installation I used two 2.5-amp self-resetting fuses on a small circuit board between the battery pack, battery switch, receiver and sound board. The polyfuses are available from Digi-Key Corporation, or Digi-Key Canada, or Mouser Electronics under the manufacturer’s part number 30R250UU.

(http://ovgrs.editme.com/files/Connie/Polyfuses02.jpg)

The dark hole on the circuit board is for mounting the battery switch.

http://ovgrs.editme.com/files/Connie/Polyfuses14.bmp

#14

RCS of new England has a lot of little aids. one I like is Body mount Battery Install Kit w/screw terminals, thermal polyfuses and charge jack. BIK-U 6amp

Dick

#15

I went into Radio Shack today and looked at fuses, now I’m really confused. Besides amps, they’re also rated by voltage. Most of the fuses I saw were for 125v or 250v. The Revo instructions only mention 3-amp fuses and didn’t specify what voltage.

#16

Ray if your just looking for a fuse go to wallyworld in auto parts or go to auto parts store

a lot less and they have different fuse holders and allelectronics have a fuse holder and fuses. I

have used Alco GMA fuse holder you can mount it in the bottom of a tender you then have easy assess

to the fuse.

Dick

#17

Never mind… it turns out I don’t need any additional fuses. There are two fuses on the adaptor plug. I’m guessing the instructions about adding a fuse, was written before AC started putting fuses on the adaptor.

#18

Ray, I think you will find those fuses are in the MOTOR (receiver output) traces to protect the electronics from track power derailment short circuits.

As you are talking about battery power, you should have fuses in the INPUT wires from the battery switch to protect the receiver (and sound board if added). The self-resetting fuses I mentioned are rated for 30 volts, 2.5 amps. They are the same fuses Aristo-Craft uses in their locomotives and are inexpensive to buy.

(http://media.digikey.com/photos/Littelfuse%20Photos/30R250UU_sml.jpg)

#19

I got the loco apart today and isolated the motor from the track pickups. While I’m doing all this stuff, I want to replace the LEDs in the headlight and backup light. I want to put in brighter, warm white LEDs, same as I used on my RS-3 and also in my railbus. Trouble is, there’s no resistor wired to the existing LEDs (which is probably why the backup LED blew up.) So, can someone tell me what kind of resister to use?

#20

The value and wattage of the resistor will depend on the voltage of the battery pack you are using.

What is the specified voltage ofthe pack you intend to use?