Large Scale Central

I may have found a spray paint to suggest not using on Bachmann'

Modeling
#1

Hey Y’all;

I may have found a spray paint to suggest not using on Bachmann’s kits.
KRYLON Ruddy Brown Primer #51317.

A couple days ago washed in kitchen sink with Clorox soft Scrub on a toothbrush, rinsed, dried, and spray primed chassis floor to a Bachmann 4-wheel caboose kit.

Went way early this Monday morning to scrape on a mold parting line I’d missed before spraying and discovered paint could be scraped off down to bare plastic with my fingernails.

Now that’s interesting.
Really interesting, actually.

Painted on a 70 something day with 50 or 60 something humidity.
That’s not the problem.

Let’s look at the can and see drying and handling time.
Drys in 10 minutes or less, handle in one hour, topcoat anytime.

Well, hmm . . .

Label says “Indoor/Outdoor Metal Wood Wicker more”
Alright, what’s the “more”?
Let’s see back of label.
“Use on: Indoor & outdoor wood, metal, wicker, glass, ceramic, masonry, paper & fabric.”

Interesting how that list appears to have a profound absence of PLASTIC.

But then . . .
That’s a generic list because very next sentence is “Coverage: 25sq ft on non-porus primed surfaces”
–> Why does a can of primer only list paint coverage on already primed surfaces???

So that has me wondering if there is any relevance to the “Use On” list.

Now what?
I have no idea.

One thing I do know is that stripping the paint off and starting over with something else ain’t gonna happen unless the person who suggests that comes here to do it gratis.
By this weekend.

Do I have a can of Rust-Oleum spray primer? What would it say? Be right back.
And this just got More Interesting–

I don’t have a can of Rust-Oleum spray primer; but, I did find the near empty can of KRYLON Ruddy Brown Primer the one in question was purchased to replace.
— but, It DOES say PLASTIC in the use on line & its stock number is 1317 versus 51317 on the new can.
— but, the UPC code number is 7 24504 01317 4

So then, can I infer KRYLON slipped in a chemistry change, probably by government edict, that screwed me over?

(which goes to confirm that if my government can’t screw me one way they will find at least one other way)

#2

Just When The EFFING HELL did putting area code in parenthesis become
the WRONG way to give the phone number???

Was on KRYLON’s website attempting to send them a message about paint issue and ran into where the contact info kept telling me the phone number I entered wasn’t valid.
And wouldn’t say why.
WTF???

Finally I used the “Not a valid phone number” to
call a friend and ask what the deal with this thing was and she said
that parenthesis thing has now changed.

Okay, and I would have divined that out of thin air HOW???

I’ve had my fill of change, I believe.

#3

I don’t know if Krylon’s formula has changed…or just their marketing.
They now have Fusion, primer for plastic. Fusion does stick to the plastic, but I have problems with it spitting out big blobs of paint.
Rust O Leum also has a plastic primer. But it seems to have its own problems. Frequently comes off with the masking tape.
So even using the plastic primer, I have to repaint about 25% of the time. If I don’t use a special plastic primer,
repainting doubles to 50%.
I don’t know what’s changed since I was a kid, the plastic or the paint. But I don’t remember having all these painting problems with my models then.
Ralph

#4
Forrest Scott Wood said:
Hey Y'all;

I may have found a spray paint to suggest not using on Bachmann’s kits.


I’ve been told that I can be quite oblique in my speech, but do you mean ‘Do NOT use this spray paint on Bachmann plastic kits’?

tac
www.ovgrs.org

#5

I have never used spray can paints on models as I was not sure that an even finish i.e. no ‘curtains’ would ensue.

I have had good success repainting three Bachmann and a couple of Aristo-Craft freight cars using an acrylic paint which is primarily for military model figures. It has no sheen, wears well, does not flake or peel and is easily applied with a decent sable brush. Is is water based so brushes clean well.

#6

Thanks for the heads up on the paint. I use rattle-cans frequently for painting my projects and will surely read the labels more carefully now.

The change probably has to do with the imagined/real concern about certain volatile organic compounds. New Jersey, only a stone’s throw away, has banned certain paints for years now

#7

Thats odd as I still have a half used can of the very product, haven’t had any problems but then I wasnt spraying Bmann kits

#8

That is odd, that is all I use on my bachmann, HLW etc… I love the Krylon Rudy brown, never experienced that before. Try spraying it with the krylon clear flat after the brown dries. That should give it a little more protection. Also soak the can in warm water to loosen it up. Keeps the globs from shooting out.

#9

Krylon did change their formula I think a year or two back. (I believe it was on environmental grounds.) I’ve not had any issues using their new formula on plastic, at least not Evergreen styrene and the Bachmann plastic bits (some painted, some stripped) I’ve used on my recent projects. It covers as it always has in the past. Others have made mention of the fact that the new formula has “issues” that the old formula didn’t, so perhaps there’s something in some plastics vs. others that keeps it from behaving properly?

Later,

K

#10

I have had this problem, but only in spots. I’m thinking the Soft Scrub was not totally washed away. I like to buy a cheap, big bottle of rubbing alcohol, and scrub with an old toothbrush. That alcohol is cheap and doesn’t seem to react with the different plastics.
The best primer I ever used was the Rustoleum Automotive Primer. It was a real light grey color, and I’ve used it as a finish color to duplicate the grey stripes on the Raritan River Railroad. Unless they have “reformulated” all the paints for the environment.
You do indeed have a strange case. I picked up 3 undecorated Bachmann kits at Trainworld at ECLSTS, but now I will try a small area first that is out of sight.

#11

Could the Clorox Soft Scrub be a contributor to the problem?

#12

I of course can’t speak for your specific experience but based on the success I’ve had with Krylon paints over the years I’d guess that the Clorox might be the problem in this case if not completely washed off. I virtually never wash the objects to be painted unless they’re so cruddied up that the dirt shows. I do dust them off however.

Also for plastic I’ve used the old Krylon formula and only had a chance to use the newer formula a relatively few times but no problems whatever. One item I do not use is Krylon’s Fusion brand even for plastic. Poor coverage, poor adhesion, although it works swell if you want to paint a plastic lawn chair. It does not like to be applied over any other finish including primers.

When using a new paint on a Bachmann car, which I seldom do anymore, I remove the body from the frame and spray beneath it. That way any interaction will be where it won’t show.

Addenda:
Since the subject of primers came up I’ll put my own preferences in. I use Bondo primer in spray cans in all three colors; black, grey, and red with equal success. These are my favorites. I also have had no problem at all with the Krylon primers. I do not like any other brands as well for various reasons. Mostly because they go on too thick or take forever to dry. The thick slow drying primers seem to be more likely to react with underlying paint layers. Both Bondo and Krylon dry quickly and the finish color (Krylon) can be applied within minutes and give a nice even coat. Note too that different manufacturers’ paint may react quite different from each other.
Always test a new paint on a scrap or unexposed part before applying it to a model you’ve worked so hard on. It only takes a minute or two and can save a lot of heartache…just in case.

#13

My normal spray primer is a grey automotive undercoat (never use an enamel spray undercoat on plastics). This is totally inert on plastics and I have used for the last thirty plus years with no ill effect. One day I thought that I would save a painting step and use the red primer undercoat to represent a mineral red car, thus saving on spraying the grey undercoat first and then the red finish spray coat. Well, I do not have many spray disasters, but this was a total failure. I spent several hours trying to repair the paint damage before throwing the car in the bin. The car represented many hours of kitbashing but could not be saved. I never use a red coloured primer as I believe the pigments are not combatible with plastics. I also do not use the grey ‘anti-rusting’ automotive primer spray, with added zinc, as it also is not compatible.

Sometimes ABS plastic is hnot cooperative with normal grey undercoat spray and has problems with adhering to the surface. There is a specific automotive plastics undercoat/primer for ABS type automotive plastics (bumpers, trim, etc.), but to date I have not used it.

#14

Very interesting thread.
I have the Ruddy Red/brown and the Black primer and don’t care much for either. My Washington Fire House is painted in the red as a top coat and has done well on P.P. brick sheets. Tried it on my F40 build along with the black and ended up back with the gray primer. Ya’ gotta watch all rattle cans period and from what I have read it can go either way.
I do like the Krylon line of paints and have had Very Good Success with Fusion but you must careful on ALL applications when spraying period. Some are hot some are not??

#15
Richard Smith said:
I of course can't speak for your specific experience but based on the success I've had with Krylon paints over the years I'd guess that the Clorox might be the problem in this case if not completely washed off. I virtually never wash the objects to be painted unless they're so cruddied up that the dirt shows. I do dust them off however.

Also for plastic I’ve used the old Krylon formula and only had a chance to use the newer formula a relatively few times but no problems whatever. One item I do not use is Krylon’s Fusion brand even for plastic. Poor coverage, poor adhesion, although it works swell if you want to paint a plastic lawn chair. It does not like to be applied over any other finish including primers.

When using a new paint on a Bachmann car, which I seldom do anymore, I remove the body from the frame and spray beneath it. That way any interaction will be where it won’t show.


I also never wash anything I paint. Just a quick blow of dust and paint away. Im never looking for that perfect coat of paint like air brushing. How did the engines and rolling stock get painted in the early 1900’s. Not air brushes or paint cans for that matter. I could see diesels etc… being more even and perfect paint jobs.

#16

What??? The prototype steam locos weren’t perfectly smooth? I guess not…

(http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/eastbroadtop/EBTPrototype/EBTroughsurface.jpg)

Later, K

#17

Krylon’s products have changed over the past couple years or so, along with a lot of other products. And yes, it’s due to government edicts; and yes again, it’s usually to the detriment of the once formerly-fine product. :frowning:

I recently found out that Liquid Nails had to change their formula too. (No warning on the package that it had been changed, natch.) Appearance and consistency is quite different. Only time will tell if it holds up as well as the original stuff.

#18
Kevin Strong said:
What??? The prototype steam locos weren't perfectly smooth? I guess not...

http://1stclass.

Later,

K


LOL thats why I never worry about getting a perfect finish…

#19

My main concern would be that the clorex-based cleaner may be the problem.
Ialso stay away from primers when I use the Fusion and for me it has worked great. I’ve been using it the past two days on Colorado Scale Structures kits.
I also experimented today with Rustoleum’s brown textured spray for the roofs on those kits and I like the way it worked. I’m going to use Krylon’s matte spray on the buildings but I think I won’t try it on the roofs. I’m not taking any chances.

#20

Here’s what came in from KRYLON:

"5/4/2010 12:50:44 PM [Agent Note]

Thanks for writing back.

Fusion paint for plastics is what we would now recommend for plastic surfaces. That said, the old primer didn’t work well on plastic which is why we removed Plastic from the list of substrates. The formula is still the same, but over the years we came up with Fusion which works so much better and decided to eliminate the chance of failure using the regular primer. That said, we don’t recommend 51317 because it’s not suitable for plastic surfaces. "

Interesting – That said, the old primer didn’t work well on plastic which is why we removed Plastic from the list of substrates.

And – we don’t recommend 51317 because it’s not suitable for plastic surfaces.

__

As for the Clorox Soft Scrub prep wash - been doing that since around 1983 on HO, N, Sci-Fi, Military, On30, model rockets, miniatures gaming, models with no attributable difficulties from it with paints from Tamiya, Testors, Polly Scale, Pactra, Apple Barrel, Ceramcoat, Ral Partha, Games Workshop, Rustoleum, Krylon, so forth and so on.
Only thing is, pay attention to how well you rinse - there’s a bit of grit in the cleanser.