Large Scale Central

I know, I know, check the btb.

Modeling Motive Power
#1

I finally dusted off an Aristo Dash 9 that I bought from a club member some 12 years ago, ran once, and put on the shelf as a future project. Well, the future is now.

I took it out the shelf, dusted it off, gave it a battery and a REVO II, put it on the track, and wouldn’t you know it, it stumbles every ten feet or so. All my other Aristo and USAT locomotives run nicely along the mainline, but this one is recalcitrant (look it up, Rooster).

I know, take it to the shop, put it in the cradle, check the back to back gauge on the wheels. And today is such a nice day. No smoke, I can breathe, clear skies, slight breeze. I guess I’ll run my SD 45s, instead.

Sigh.

#2

Steve, I know how frustrating that can be. I have a few projects stuffed in boxes because they refused to behave. Maybe someday I will get back to them.

But, (I know, shut up Dave) this is why I check to make sure something runs properly before I start with any modifications to it. I hate taking the time and effort of rewiring a locomotive for DCC, and then finding out it doesn’t run well. Also, if I know it ran before I attacked it, then I know its something that I did that caused it not to run now. If I didn’t test it, then I have to wonder if it was a problem child before I attacked it, or if I messed it up. Its a peace of mind thing. And since I have so few pieces of my mind left…

#3

I had the same symptom and it was miswiring.

I’d pull the revo and double check the track pickup wiring stem to stern (usually a motor and a pickup wire are swapped)

VERY common on Aristo locos.

Greg

#4

Greg Elmassian said:

I had the same symptom and it was miswiring.

I’d pull the revo and double check the track pickup wiring stem to stern (usually a motor and a pickup wire are swapped)

VERY common on Aristo locos.

Greg

Greg, thanks for the info, but after all these years, you have to know that I run battery power. I did check to make sure the wheels were turning in the same direction. (https://largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-wink.gif)

I think that part of the problem is those hangy down things that Kadee thinks we use in Large Scale outdoors. They touch frogs and retailers, and lift the loco just enough to let the wheels out of the track. The rest can be laid at the feet of deferred track maintenance. I have a few spots where side to side level is history, one spot where one rail is slightly bent, as if Bambi stepped on it, another spot at a track joint where there is a profound verticle curve. Curious though, I put my double headed SD 45s on, and they negotiated the track flawlessly. I’m beginning to think most of the problem lies with the couplers. I discovered that problem when one of them snapped off.

I’m still working on my first cup of coffee, so I’ll check btb in a bit.

#5

Steve, and others, who fall into that trap…thinking, that the Kadee Coupler “Tails” cause troubles…

Those tails are in 99% of the time, just fine, and clear properly laid track/rail with no problems at all.

BEFORE blatantly cutting them off…use them as an indicator that the couplers have NOT been mounted at the correct height… or for some reason have been lowered…

I do repairs of couplers for numerous people who claim that they “Had to cut them off” because they were too low.

It was always, an example of people not checking the coupler height when mounting the couplers.

PAY THE price and purchase the appropriate Kadee Coupler Gauge, and start using it. STOP BLAMING THE COUPLER TAILS.

Although the tails may not be used by many, at least they simulate brake hoses, that at least are less delicate than those that sometime come with rolling stock, or are added by modellers.

In most cases of people having troubles of any type, with Kadee Couplers; I find the troubles start with haphazard, or poor mounting of the couplers, and in most cases, not using the coupler gauge. MOUNT THEM “DEAD ON” for height, and troubles disappear…

Fred Mills

#6

I know I have cut the tails off for nearly 20 years but it is too late to pit them back on. Most of the problem over the years has been my imperfect track laying. I have an early Bachman boxcar that was at fault because Bachman had improperly placed the coupler box too low and the tails wouldn’t clear my LGB switches. Seeveral times I have had to cut the boxes off Aristo engines because they are too low. it seems like Aristo seemed to feel that 1/28 track and switches were a special size made just for them! I even have a boxcar that is fitted at 1/29 height on one end and 1/24 height on the other!

#7

I have never cut a KD tail, I have bent a few up…

#8

I have had to bend a few up, and yes the knuckle was dead center on the KaDee gauge. The uncoupling pin should be 1/8 inch above the rail-heads (per KaDee) and I use a 1/8th piece of strip-wood as a check gauge for my uncoupling pins. With the pins properly adjusted, I have no issues with them catching on my turnouts.

#9

Fred, I know the coupler is too low. I need to get a medium offset coupler to make this right. Either that, or a bunch of washers to raise the straight shank coupler about 3/32 inch, perhaps a bit more.

This is why they call it a hobby. (https://largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-laughing.gif)

#10

Steve, if you are putting something into the socket, my comments still hold.

The miswiring is from the socket “out” so the wires that the Revo thinks are going to the motors might not be so.

The shorting plug hides the problem…

You will find out fast if you don’t check it and you plug something in. It has destroyed decoders. That’s my final warning.

I actually have an entire web page just on SD45 wiring errors: https://elmassian.com/index.php/large-scale-train-main-page/motive-power-mods-aamp-tips/aristo-motive-power/sd45/sd45-wiring-errors

Greg

#11

Steve Featherkile said:

Fred, I know the coupler is too low. I need to get a medium offset coupler to make this right. Either that, or a bunch of washers to raise the straight shank coupler about 3/32 inch, perhaps a bit more.

This is why they call it a hobby. (https://largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-laughing.gif)

Oh, is that why?

#12

Greg, your page is for the SD 45. My loco is a Dash 9. I blew a REVO II with the old SD45 boards, Navin provided me with new SD45 boards with the problem solved. The CHICOMS found a cheaper less expensive way to build the SD 45 board, and didn’t follow Aristo’s instructions. The problem wasn’t discovered until you pointed It out, but by then, a lot of DCC/REVO boards had been blown. The last run of boards for the SD45 were built to Aristo design and seems to be fine.

According to Navin, the Dash 9 and the E8 don’t have that problem, just the SD 45. Other Aristo products seem to be fine, too. Do you know something he doesnt?

#13

My experience with Kadee couplers and the Aristo-Craft Dash-9

When using the Kadee 789 or 907 centerset coupler assemblies on the Dash-9, I found them to have a low horizontal alignment when checking with a Kadee track height gauge. Also, the plastic coupler box hole location used for the mounting on the loco’s pedestal results in having the box project out more than it needs or should be.

Moreover, the front and rear porch areas near the pilot can have a somewhat downward tilt- even a small amount makes a difference. This can be mitigated - illustrated below.

Aristo Dash-9 pilot tilt

Rather than using Kadee offset couplers, I had custom made metal coupler boxes that accept Kadee centerset couplers from the Kadee 789 or newer 907 kits. (I have been thinking about doing a Dash-9 custom 3-D printed plastic CamPac BoxTM with Colin Camarillo that will accept Kadee centersets)

It may be helpful to see “Vignette” Appendix A for the Aristo Dash-9 Datum Precision custom made metal coupler box application.

Shown below is an example Dash-9 SP loco with Datum Precision metal coupler box with Kadee centerset coupler.

Aristo Dash-9 with Datum Precision Metal Coupler Box

Shown below are two Aristo Dash-9 coupled nose to nose on a straight track with Kadee centerset couplers installed in Datum Precision metal boxes. The UP loco on the left has the older style knuckle whilst the SP loco on the right has the newer AAR “E” type knuckle.

Aristo Dash-9s coupled nose to nose

-Ted

#14

Steve, there have been random wiring errors in ALL Aristo locos over time.

I’m giving up here, no reason to fight you… lots of evidence for years. I’ve also explained many times before how the shorting plug hides the problem.

Greg

#15

Every time I see an “Offset Shank”, Kadee coupler, it makes me feel sick. Yes, they do serve the needs of people with the dreaded truck mounted couplers, but they immediately look so unprototypical…although it seems there may be a prototype for just about anything a modeller creates.

The offset shanks can, in most cases be avoided, by replacing the poorly engineered mounting stands with good built-up styrene pads. This of course, horrors, to think, ruins the collector value of the model…or takes some creative thinking on the part of the owner.

The offset shanks create a situation that forces, under load, the couplers to tilt, and not hold well.

So many great models have been presented, in pictures, on these pages, and in the model press, showing these offset shank couplers, front and centre…to my eye, ruining the model, no-mater how many dedicated hours went into it.

These are my observations, others are free to disagree…everyone sees through their own eyes…to each, their own…

Fred Mills

#16

And an “air hose” hanging out of the bottom of a coupler is prototypical?

I have cut everyone of mine off since day one and if needed, put the air hose where it is supposed to be.

And I use the height gauge.

#17

iJohn;

I have never suggested that the tails made PERFECT air hoses. I always refer to them as “Simulated” air hoses. It is true that air hoses are not located under the couplers, but the Kadee tails at least offer a SIMULATION of them.

The only thing I keep repeating, is that in about 99% of the time the tails offer a clear indication whether the coupler is located at the correct height.

Some people even use them for actual uncoupling, and delayed action uncoupling too…imagine that…!!

We don’t use them for uncoupling in our operations, but, as I suggested, some people do…hard to believe, eh…!!

Fred Mills

#18

Greg Elmassian said:

Steve, there have been random wiring errors in ALL Aristo locos over time.

I’m giving up here, no reason to fight you… lots of evidence for years. I’ve also explained many times before how the shorting plug hides the problem.

Greg

Greg, I wasn’t aware that we were fighting. I’m just asking for information. We both have agreed that Navin is the go to guy for all things Aristo. He says that the Dash 9 boards are fine, you say they are not. Who am I supposed to believe? So far, I have about 2 hours run time on this REVO II/Dash 9 combo. If there was a problem, i think it would show up, by now.

I checked with the guy that did the installation (it was a package deal, boards plus install) and he says that he meggared the boards and they are fine, no worries. Now, to get the couplers at the right height to stop the derailing.

#19

Btw, btb is fine.

edit: correct autocorrect. Frack, I hate Bill Gates.

#20

I’m not going to weigh in on any “Wiring Debate”, here, but…

It is VERY common knowledge that when doing anything with Aristo wiring…DON’T EVER DEPEND ON WIRE COLOURS…always check any wire with a continuity meter before you put power to it…Bachman, is said to have made mistakes too at times.

Now, guys, stop this stupidity…!!..…and get back to none electrical “Connection problems”…!!

Fred Mills