Large Scale Central

How to reduce wheel flange size?

In my same-day review of the new Aristo-Craft street car in the review section,the wheel flanges in the two-motored car are 1/8" tall and appear to be the cause of the car rocking and wheels lifting on sections of the Aristo stainless track. The problem is much less on the brass LGB track and some of the Aristo brass track. The conclusion is a guess: The ties on the stainless have fishplates that protrude in height-- they are Aristo ties threaded onto the stainless rails. Granted, this is ironic.
So given the problem is the height of the flanges – you could see the wheels lift when coming to the joints – what is the best way to reduce the flanges to the height - say, used by B’mann,LGB, USA, and Hartland’s street cars which have zero problems?

Anyone had this problem with this new product?

Bench grinder?

Wendell

Power them up, with the wheels facing up and get it running. Put a sanding drum in your Dremel and as the wheels rotate, you can lightly grind down the flange. Wear goggles! Somebody here did that with their Pacific, as I recall. If the drive is not strong enough, you will probably have to remove them and use a lathe or drill.

Jerry-
Sharp suggestion! I’ll give it a try.

Ah, that brings back memories :wink: That was me, trying to get the Pacific in gauge. The flanges were way too large and out of conformance.

I ended up using a cutting head in the Dremel to take most of it down, and then used a file to finish it.

More here: http://www.largescalecentral.com/LSCForums/viewtopic.php?id=11143&p=1

I’d check the gauge as well…I suspect that they haven’t learned yet.

Bruce Chandler said:
Ah, that brings back memories ;) That was me, trying to get the Pacific in gauge. The flanges were way too large and out of conformance.

I ended up using a cutting head in the Dremel to take most of it down, and then used a file to finish it.


You were the first person I thought of when I saw the thread!
:slight_smile:

Wendell,

after you get the profile you want, diassemble the mechanism, clean thourly and relube. otherwise those fillings will eat up the bearings and gears over time.

Al,
Good suggestion.
I’m first going to guage the wheels. The “lifting up” can also be the wheel guage. Although, the fact the wheels lift at the track connections signals flanges. What a hobby!

Jerry’s solution as to how to reduce wheel size is correct – at least for the metal hardness of Aristo’s wheels. The Dremel, with metal grinder, removed the large flanges easily. The rotation of the wheels, driven by the motor, worked out great! Thanks Jerry. Now, the other problem of gauge was more difficult to remedy. The axles are not solid but are connected to each other using plastic tubes. So moving the wheels inward requires the shafts of each wheel to push inward towards each other inside the tubes – which also has the gearing attached. The gears have to mesh with each other and the motor. So the wheels can only be moved X amount inward and still allow the gears on the tubes to mesh with the motor’s drive system. Anyway, the trolley does move around much better - no jumping the rails. Moral of the story: Buy one ONLY IF you know your rails are spot-on as to gauge. This Aristo product has the flanges absolutely in contact with the inside of the rails. I have no idea why as the wheel surface tread is about 1/4"+ wide – plenty of room for flanges that don’t come needlessly close to the inside of the rails. Yes, I’m irritated knowing that ALL of the other brands of locos and rolling stock we use work easily on the track as is.
Wendell

George Schreyer and also another friend of mine have reported the flanges are no deeper than other Aristo locos. They DO look larger on the smaller diameter wheels. I’d check the back to back and the wheel gauge. My guess is the typical overly thick flanges make it difficult to get both right at the same time. One person has already thinned his flanges by grinding some off from behind. This technique has been applied to other Aristo locos with success.

Regards, Greg

Greg-
The variances are puzzling. However, if the actual manufacturer – the builder/assembly line that Aristo uses or used – wants to make changes, apparently they are made at the factory. This is from a talk I had with Lee Riley who indicated his frustration with modifications long after the design from his desk was completed. So variances may be the norm.
Wendell

Wendell, I now have a PCC car at my house. I see the same problem George reported, the wheelsets are WAY overgauge, the back to back on one set was 1.651, where you want 1.574-5.

Big problem.

No one has been brave enough to disassemble and pull the axles out of the plastic gear housing. George tried to squish his together, and it moved a bit, but still way out of gauge.

Greg

Greg-
Brave enough? Oh,oh. I did. After removing axles in one of the motor assemblies, I pulled on one of the wheel axles from the drive tube and out came the attached axle and wheel – including the little spring. The axles are stubs wilth “tooth” cuts to grip the inside of the attaching tubes. Now, they can be moved much or too little inside the tubes. That’s the “Oh, oh” part. Tough problem as the axle length, as it rests in the car body journals, also determines where the blasted gears touch each other. Too far out or too far in on the axles = no mesh. The little springs on the axle ends - next to the wheel flanges - are designed, I guess, to allow the wheels to accomodate variances in track width and permit lateral axle movement going around curves. Anyway, my trolly is now shelved awaiting others to seek remedies. Meanwhile, my HLW Pacific Electric trolly model runs great! Yes, no problems with wheel gauge, motor complexity, or any other foibles.

HWL will exist on reliability alone.

Greg, you are helpful and good at problem solving. Would you please take a second (third? fourth?) look and offer your diagnosis?
Many thanks,
Wendell

Wendell

Wendell, do you have any pictures of the parts disassembled?

Was anything damaged pulling the axle out of the gear?

The back to back I measured was 1.615, should be 1.575… so very little needs to be trimmed from the ends of the axles, although I intend to true the wheels and flanges and reduce the flange depth.

I’m a little confused about your statement for the springs allowing variances in track width, the axles should be fixed in the gear casting, and the back to back and wheel gauge should be fixed.

If you want to email me pix, just email to [email protected]

Thanks, Greg

Greg-
Thanks for your response. I messed up with the photo process and e-mail. I’ll give another try at the verbal.
1 - The axles are pushed into the tubes from both sides of the tubes. The gears are attached to the tubes and appear NOT to move on the plastic tube. I know this is strange.
2 - The axles can be pushed further into the tube ends. I did try it to bring the wheels so they were not actually rubbing on the inside of the rails. However, the problem is the axles also have a sleeve bearing just next to the wheel. This bearing rests in the frame. OK so far? Now, the problem is IF the axles are pushed too far into the tubes, the bearing and frame “slot” for the bearing is now out of alignment.
3 - The axles each have this little circular spring surrounding the axle between the bearing and the wheels – yes, a small distance but enough to allow lateral play of the axle once located into the frame supporting slot. The slot in the frame is like the ones in the LGB locos that hold the LGB loco axles.

Okay - My guess is you will see all I have described if you open the gear case. Nothing will jump out – and I don’t mean that as sarcastic – as you and I both know some of these motor blocks have tension parts. This one does not. Now, once open, you will see those little springs just outside the bearings located on the axles next to the wheels. The axles do have serrated ends so they will press into the tubes and hold. Note that IF you do push the axles into the tubes, you CAN screw up the gear alignment. At least I drew this conclusion from experimenting with push in and pull out efforts to attain some space between wheel flanges and the inside of the rails.
4 - Yes, finally, I did move the axles inward slightly – at least enough for the gears to engage and run. However, the mechanism is not the quietest in town. Frankly, I am NOT impressed with this indulgent mechanism. I suspect the Aristo folk - esp. Lewis - may not have known the final engineering outcome. The HWL product is so much simpler. Nuff of my lament. The problem is getting the fix.

Other than this report, frankly Greg, I stopped and put the car away for a time out. Thanks for your efforts.

Any other readers have further analysis?
Wendell

Wendell, can you email me your contact info, like email and maybe phone number? I’d like to chat with you on this.

email to [email protected]

I have some ideas.

Thanks, Greg

I have successfully modified the wheels/axles in the PCC, reduced the ridiculous flange thickness and also modified the “gear casting” to get an acceptable back to back. After the mods, the PCC runs like a dream, no more derailments, no more wobbling though switches, no more walking out of the rails when the gauge gets a bit tight.

(http://www.elmassian.com/images/stories/motivepower/aristo/pcc/pcc_back_to_back.jpg)

See my web site for pictures and details: http://www.elmassian.com/trains-mainmenu-27/motive-power-mods-aamp-tips-mainmenu-35/aristo-motive-power-mainmenu-72/pcc-car Regards, Greg

Greg-
Many thanks!
You are affirming the value, once again, of this site.
Wendell

Thanks for your help Wendell… in return I would be happy to modify your wheelsets if you want.

Give me a call/email if you want me to do them.

Greg

I think that with Aristo the first thing you have to do is bring the parts into compliance with standards.

To my way of thinking that means first get those flanges thinned down - from the back. To do that you have to pull the axles apart, out of that plastic tube or tube/gear combination in the middle.

Yes there’s a risk of breaking the plastic, splitting it or ruining the inner knurling or something, but do it anyway.

Then work on the flange.

The easiest method is to chuck the axle into a drillpress and go at the back of the flange with a file.

Next you have to get all wheels in gauge, so shove the axles back into those plastic sleeves and measure back to back. You’ll almost certainly have to remove them again and grind one or both of the axles a bit shorter. A very light touch on a grindwheel will do this part of the job. Now you have to reassemble things. I’ve had to deal with these plastic center parts enough to know they need reinforcement. They split and the axles separate. I’ve had some real fun experiences with this.

Whether or not your plastic tubes are already split or broken at this point, you really should reinforce them now anyway, as they will eventually cause trouble. I mean whether this is a regular car we’re working on - just the tube - or a piece of motive power - tube and gear molded on. even if you yourself never put any strain on it, the weight of the rolling stock and time will damage it. The plastic will for absolute certain dry out and split eventually, so fix it now while you have it all in pieces!

I reinforce these parts with lengths of brass tubing - not sure of the size right now, but it’s a tight fit - slipped over Aristo’s black tubes and epoxied. Did I mention that early in this whole procedure you’ve degreased everything? !!! That’s so the tools will grind and the glues will stick, in case you were wondering…

Now shove your axles back in, check the back to back gauge (I’m convinced this is the most critical one here) check that the thing rolls without wobble and adjust as necessary, and when you’ve got it right, apply crazy glue between the axle and that black tubing. Let it sit for an hour before fiddling with it any more. Overnite is even better. ‘Instant’ ACC adhesives strengthen considerably with this extra time allowance.

Well, that’s the general procedure. Right now I’m working on an Aristo 0-4-0 where the gear/tubing combo blew out and threw the driver right out of the picture, darn near ruined the monkey motion and main rods as well. Happened while running at a show, naturally. My fault. It was new and I assumed it was OK. Wotta fool. Sure it’s under warranty, but by the time I’m finished with it it’ll be better than new, and that’s the whole point.

In a case like this, BTW, you have to add a fairly simple little procedure for quartering the drivers as well. You set up a square standing upright and a straightedge the width of yr driver radius, and put yr drivers on the axle between these 2 gauges. Remove and replace or else twist yr drivers until they’re truly quartered, adjust for gauge and finally apply that ACC adhesive as above.

If you have a lot of Aristo gear, you have my sympathy. There are a whole lot of problems with those sprung trucks and four-wheelers as well. They can be got to work beautifully, but it can be a lot of work filing and smoothing the moving parts. I have done it with some cars, and on others I just replaced the springs with a hunk of something solid, because AFAIC the equalization just isn’t worth the bother.

I think AristoCraft had very good intentions with a lot of their products, but went way off track in some places - smoke units in passenger cars, equalization of many of their cars, railings cast in base metal and then plated, crummy sintered wheelsets, are some examples. They would have been wiser to skip the luxuries and concentrate on really reliable and solid mechs and wheelsets that were in compliance with track standards. Now there’s a novel idea.

Once again it’s the old rule: keep things simple.

The more you add, the more there is to go wrong!

To the guy who praised Hartland on the previous page for concentrating on these last factors, I couldn’t agree more. Their stuff skips the fine detail and is just plain solid and pretty near kid-proof. I buy into that. After all I can add all the fine detail I want. One improvement Hartland could make would be to make our disassembly of their stuff easier and more obvious. Then we’d have an even better TRULY great source to work on…

John, I see your enthusiasm joining the site, although you seem to be resurrecting year old threads. Usually, when you do this, there’s less interest unless you have something new to add.

Did you go to my site? The PCC link is http://www.elmassian.com/trains/motive-power-mods-aamp-tips/aristo-motive-power/pcc-car .

I see you have embraced what I did, but the solution on Aristo is NOT always cutting from the back side, in the case of the Consolidation, you need to cut from the tread side.

The Aristo diesels are different from the Aristo steamers are different from the PCC… the PCC is the only popular Aristo motive power with “adjustable” axles…

You might want to read my site under motive power… aristo … prime mover basics.

Greg