Large Scale Central

How many people still build from kits

John has the right idea- my last THREE 1/20.3 cars were scratchbuilt, except for the trucks, using scrap bits of wood and styrene and hundreds of coffee stirrers.

I’ve built some of Phi’s beautiful cars and cabeese as well, and they are, to my mind, remarkable value for money. However, mention what they actually cost to many people and they nigh-on die of shock. A friend of mine here in UK makes Gauge 1, 1/32 and 10mm scale passenger cars of the old LNER teak coaching stock. They are true-scale models, with the correct 'tumble-home TEAK sides and ends as per prototype - what you would call craftsmans-level models in the US, but pretty average here in UK where we seem to be more used to having to do things that hard way or do without.

These laser-cut coach body kits - without trucks or undercarriage detail - sell for around $450 each. Add the correct trucks and bits and that rises to around $700.

Each.

The ‘Flying Scotsman’ or an A4 Streamliner would need ten or twelve of these to represent the average consist.

Nobody said that you HAD to be rich, but there is no gain-saying that it’s a great help.

tac

Ottawa Valley GRS

Chester,

just compare the forums of today with the forums of some years ago.

you will note, that the quantity of “look what i bought” threads is dwindling away.

your targeted group of customers is fighting with job-loss, debts and the danger of descending from middleclass to rock bottom.

in my opinion definitely not the best time to start producing expensive products.

Build from kits? No, I don’t usually build from kits. I am a cheap bast person and most kits cost a lot of money. Bachmann’s kits being the one glaring exception. I scratch-build or kit-bash, and the basis is usually something I got cheap. So, unfortunatly, I probably would not be a customer of yours.

The one gentleman, who displays at the ECLSTS, has some beautiful laser cut wood kits of the EBT coaches and caboose. I would have brought home some of his kits, but again, they cost a lot of money and I am a cheap…person.

As was mentioned above I might be interested in piece work if the price is not too outrageous. I am a mechanical designer and appreciate the cost of equipment and time so my valuation of what you are asking is a bit higher than most hobbyists. And the Duck Bill Billmyer and Smalls cars are where I am headed.

It will also depend on what software you will be using. I work in high end cad packages and can deliver most formats that a laser cutter might need, others not so much. I will be following this thread with interest.

Chester, I have similar aspirations. My advice would be to just get the thing and start making stuff. That’s what I did. I’m working on my first ‘kit’ now- a general store for my own railroad. It’s quite a learning curve, I’ve been through a lot of plywood! (I have a CNC machine, not a laser though)

But it’s also important that you like to do this. You won’t know till you try. Go for it. I’m finding designing everything, making the tool paths, putting all the parts together, making the molds for the windows and doors and keeping it all straight in my head is harder than I thought it would be. But it is way fun.

Look through the various model rail magazines and check out the competition. There are small companies with ads every month, they wouldn’t be putting them in there if they weren’t making money. Make a better mousetrap! as they say, ha.

Plus, there are other opportunities for ‘making things’ out there. My personal opinion- this is the BEST machine I have ever bought and I saved for a year to get it but it was worth every penny. (My wife freaked when I bought it but she has come around after seeing what it will do)

Martin

http://martinsant.net

The wooden parts of a kit are just a part of the whole process. You need quality castings, some brass rod, maybe some miniature fasteners, trucks, metal wheels, couplers, paint and decals. Phil supplied all of it except paint and some decals.

I model in 1:32 scale, so I must make most of my own stuff. I don’t build kits because there just aren’t any. I’ve got tons (or tonnes) of rolling stock and don’t really need more. I’ve got many 1:32 autos and trucks. But I don’t have many buildings in that scale. I’ve discovered 3D printing, but I really don’t see it as a solution to the “kits” problem.

I’d bet that if I needed more than three or four of something, it would be cheaper (perhaps faster) to make molds and cast them in resin.

If you go ahead with this, you should ask one more question first: “What would YOU buy in kit?”

Thanks everybody for your responses. You’ve given me plenty of food for thought. I’ll take my question a bit farther so you know where I am coming from as many of you don’t know who I am.

I’ve been model railroading since I was 12 yrs. old. I’m now 67. I started in HO and now have an Accucraft Fn3 live steam 4-4-0. My two favorite 3 ft gauge railroads are the Nevada County Narrow Gauge and the South Pacific Coast, both are Calif. railroads that used a lot of Carter Brothers freight and passenger equipment. When I got started in 1:20 scale I wanted some Carter Brothers freight cars and the only company that was making them was a company call Fall River which went out of business before it really got started. Any way flash forward.

Up until 2013 I was working as an independent contractor mechanical designer. At the end of March 2013 I was forced into retirement when my contract with the company I was working for no longer needed me. I now work for a plastics company and its really wearing me down and it’s not something I want to do for the rest of my life.

Now back to the LS 4-4-0. I wanted some Carter Brothers cars for my locomotive to pull. Deerfield River Laser made an On3 Carter Brothers 24ft boxcar for Boone Morrison some years ago so I wrote to Ed Fillion to see if he could make the car in 1:20. We conversed and he said yes. He cut one kit, wood only, and sent it to me. It turned out to be all over sized. That was two years ago. A month ago I wrote to him telling him that I was fed-up waiting for him to get back to my project. He has returned my money and I am still without a Carter Brothers 24ft boxcar.

Now I had made arangements with Bob Hartford to use his 28ft short kit for his Carter Brothers kit to use in my 24ft car with a change of trucks. The 24ft car used a different size truck than the 28ft car. After Bob sold the business to Dave at Ozark Miniatures I made the same arangement with him. Now with DRL not being of any help I thought why not produce it myself and that is where my question has come from.

Now I know there isn’t much call for Carter Brothers equipment like there is for D&RG equipment, but I got a good response over on mylargescale as to who would buy the kit. My second car kit would be a 24ft flat car. But these two cars wouldn’t even pay for a cutter, this I know, thats why my question. I know I would have to expand the offerings to pay for the cutter.

I don’t expect to get rich from this adventure, no far from it. And this is just my opinion but some of the prices for services from other cutters are way to high. I just bought a 7/8’s scale SR&RL 2ft gauge boxcar kit with all but trucks for $325 and that included shipping. When built this boxcar will be larger than a AML Jackson & Sharp passenger car in 1:20. And there where only 25 kits made. Now I contacted GAL about having a set of David Fletchers Carter Brothers passenger cars cut. He wanted $400 a piece with a min order of four cars each. That would be eight cars when I only needed two. And with the .DXF files available there wasn’t any design work to be done. So who is over charging here I ask you. Sorry about that little rant but it shows what I am talking about.

So now taking Dicks advice I’ll ask all of you “What would you like in a kit?” and what kind of prices would all of you pay?

Thank you everybody for your responses. Please keep them coming.

Chester

Bruce, how and where do I get in contact with Phil Dippel?

Thanks.

Chester

I love to build kits. In fact, I rather be building something rather than running trains. I have built several Hartford car kits and a number of structure kits from various manufacturers. As many of you know I’ve also scratch built a couple of things too.

Right now I’m in the process of building a laser-cut styrene kit from the MLS Master Class. (I’ll be reporting ,in detail, later). The kit represents an 1880’s Carter Brothers Combine. I liked this model because it had a duck-bill roof. I purchased this kit from Rick Raively (spelling?) back in 2005 for just under $300 and I think it was well worth every penny. It came with inexpensive trucks but I’ve added Accucraft trucks for better realism. This is the first all-styrene kit I’ve built and it’s great. The .pdf files for all the components are still available on MLS under the Master Class Forum.

Here is a photo of the kit under construction.

Of course, I had to add my own detailing touches such as wood floors. The wood laminate also helps to make the floor more ridged.

I hope more people get involved in manufacturing large scale kits.

Doc Watson

Chester Louis said:

Bruce, how and where do I get in contact with Phil Dippel?

Thanks.

Chester

Chester,

Phil can be reached through his website. All the info you will need to contact him. Link: http://www.philsnarrowgauge.com/

Chester,

I think you have the right idea. Get into the business so YOU can make what YOU want; if you get anybody to buy something that will only help.

I’m not much more into kits; I prefer scratchbuilding now. But, I did use Phil’s kits to get myself started.

While not wanting a kit, I sure wouldn’t mind some parts. Like the roof walk supports - I hate making those.

The kit Don is building is the coach kit I was referring to. While Don is happy with that price I need two of these of which I would be bashing to make into Brill coaches. An here in lies my personal problem. Maybe I have chosen an inappropriate hobby for my available resources but $600 bucks for two kits that I would have to modify is just not going to happen. It makes no difference really if that is a great value, I just don’t have the disposable income to pay those prices.

So I will make these coaches from scratch but cutting all those seats would suck. I might be willing to pay to have the seats cut but that’s about it. all me cheap, call me frugal, call me just plan poor; I can’t, I won’t pay those prices. So while I appreciate the services available it is unlikely i will use them for much.

I offer this only because in reality I think the vast majority of people in the hobby or wanting to be in this hobby simply do not have the funds to drop on such services. Now if you decide to buy this equipment so you can pursue your hobby and then to recoup some money then I think yu will find enough people to support your hobby. I am not sure you will find enough to support you business.

One avenue to approach is to think out side the box. Model RR is only on place to offer the service. Doll house builders, military modelers, maybe gamers, all do scale modeling. I like the idea of you saying hey provide the file and I will provide the parts. I could see several applications for that. Those carter Bro coaches are an example. The files are done. I don’t want a complete kit. Just the parts. Now if you provide that such service then maybe you will go farther than you would if you provide just a box kit. Look at the business Shapeways does. same principle.

I do wish you the best. I still hope someday to open that hobby shop as a retirement project.

With the cots of technology like laser cutters and 3D printing coming down, and the sharing of plans and diagrams, I can see where a cottage industry can develop. A cottage industry where folks make kits and parts and such that the big manufacturers do not produce. There are so many pieces of rolling stock available in HO for instance, that are not available in large scale. The cottage industry of privately produced kits, parts and cars could fill that void/need.

As for the cost to make these things, I do not know. But I do believe there would be a market for such items.

If you do decide to get a laser cutter and start making kits and parts I hope you do well.

What’s a kit?

Ed

I like kits.

A lack of dedicated work space as well as tools negates my ability to scratch build.

And yes, a $300 kit is way above my price point.

Ralph

Devon,

You most certainly are not the only victim of ‘dwindling disposable income syndrome’. We all suffer from that. As was said above, the number of ‘look what I just bough’ threads have also dwindled.

The way I see the future of large scale moving is back in time to the days of scratch building, kit bashing and kit building. Due to the costs involved, my perspective on the methodology might be different than some, but the distributed sources might be the best method. Phil Dipple has a fair investment in tooling for his business and recovering that cost is built into his kits. I think Ozark is not doing their business any service by having purchased the Hartford line, adding it to their web site, then having no stock. I am personally looking into developing a D&RGW freight truck with another caster that may become available. Having a laser cutter that is willing to do piece work will allow me to build what I want, but within the cost constraints of my disposable income.

From Chester’s point of view, if he is doing the drawings and generating the kits I would then expect a kit that fits and works when I receive it. I am certain that Phil made several ‘prototype’ kits before his kits fit and went together as well as they do (knowledge from others not personal). Chester must make it clear that if he cuts from others files, fitment is the sole responsibility of the supplier of the cutting file. Being a designer by trade, I would accept that up front, others may not. On the flip side of that issue, Chester will need to clearly define how his equipment functions in relation to what file type he is being provided. To illustrate this, a plasma cutter I used to use in my work read DXF files. To determine whether the cutter cut inside or outside the line, the path had to be converted to a polyline and the line had to be either clockwise or counterclockwise. The direction of the polyline determine inside or outside. This will affect fitment.

Chester may choose to quote by project or by material and time. By project would require sourcing all sorts of materials that a customer might wish to use. If allowing the customer to provide material, I would suggest that unless the material is known, a sample would need to be sent to allow Chester to test the cut ability of the material. This statement is brought about by me having a supply of plastic sheeting that was signage for a company my spouse worked for.

Modelers have preferences of material. I happen to prefer wood for my projects. Many prefer plastic. Ray Dunakin is a master at making plastic look like wood. Me, not so much. With a good filler or sanding sealer I can make wood look like steel. These materials cut differently, both is speed and byproducts. Most plastics will produce a fume that MUST BE EXHAUSTED as they are toxic. Wood, depending on whether it is solid wood or laminated (plywood), may or may not be toxic. Phil used to have a tab on his web site on building his shop in Colorado, it had some neat information if you read between the lines.

In Devon’s case, knowing the cars, it is my belief that the seating would definitely be a marketable item. For the hobbyist, the seating is a boring and redundant task. Seating as a kit in 1:20.3 and 1:22.5 and a reasonable price point would sell. A suggestion to assist in justifying price point might be to state that the kit consumes ‘X’ square feet of ‘Y’ material. No dollars required, let the buyer do that homework.

Chester, I surely don’t wish to discourage you, but these are a few of my thoughts on your endeavor. If piece work is something you might be considering, I certainly will give you an opportunity.

Good luck

Phil’s NG web site is at ‘philsnarrowgauge.com’. He is not making kits at this time but he will be at the Denver Convention this Summer and the last time I heard from him he said he was making kits to sell there. However that may change, so don’t quote me on that!

I have built two of his kits and like them a lot. However I also build from cut wood as well and if I can get ‘Delton Sprung Trucks’ I will build more. Keep in mind that most NG RR used home built rolling stock, buying only the metal casting and trucks they needed. I did a clinic at PSGRS a couple of years ago on that subject.

Paul Austin

Phil’s NG web site is at ‘philsnarrowgauge.com’. He is not making kits at this time but he will be at the Denver Convention this Summer and the last time I heard from him he said he was making kits to sell there. However that may change, so don’t quote me on that!

I have built two of his kits and like them a lot. However I also build from cut wood as well and if I can get ‘Delton Sprung Trucks’ I will build more. Keep in mind that most NG RR used home built rolling stock, buying only the metal casting and trucks they needed. I did a clinic at PSGRS a couple of years ago on that subject.

Paul Austin

Hi everybody,

I what to thank all who responded to my questionaire. You’ve all given me plenty to think about and the direction in which I wish to go.

Over the weekend a friend came forward and has offered to help with the developement of a 24ft Carter Brothers boxcar kit in 1:20.3. I am very excited about this new adventure and will keep you all posted on the progress of this kit.

Thanks again for all the support you have shown me.

Chester