Large Scale Central

How many people still build from kits

Modeling
#1

Hello,

I’m thinking very seriously about buying a laser cutter and starting a laser cutting service. So this is a questionaire to see if a cutting service is viable or not.

I would like to know how many people in our scales really build from kits, be it rolling stock or buildings, wood or styrene, and how many people would use a cutting service using your own designs or with the design help of the cutting service. I know there are a few services out there already as I have contacted a few myself trying to get some work cut only to run into really high prices and high requirements to have something cut.

Laser cutters are expensive and before trying to buy one, I want to see if the work is out there to support one.

Thanks in advance to answering my questions.

#2

Ive used a few laser services in the past (my EBT boxcar project for one). I’d definitely support an LSC member with one. I have a few more projects Ive been pondering…

#3

Good question. But, I’m not sure you’ll get the answer here. I’ve had one car custom laser cut; don’t know if I’ll do any more or not. Not much to go on.

I would recommend that you talk with somebody like Phil Dippel; he’s getting out of the business but probably has a much better understanding of the market than I ever will.

#4

Bruce is right, talk to Phil. I’d do one or two, perhaps, more if the price was right. Phil will give you the best answer.

#5

Bruce Chandler said:

Good question. But, I’m not sure you’ll get the answer here. I’ve had one car custom laser cut; don’t know if I’ll do any more or not. Not much to go on.

I would recommend that you talk with somebody like Phil Dippel; he’s getting out of the business but probably has a much better understanding of the market than I ever will.

Phil would definitely be the person to talk to about this. One thing to remember…many in this hobby are notoriously “cheap”. :slight_smile: They want all the detail but don’t want to pay for it. I remember when Phil bought his laser cutter (mostly for wood I believe). His kits were beautiful…just the right amount of detail and sturdy enough for rigorous outdoor use. AND FUN to build. But those kits were in the $150 to $175 range. That did not include couplers or trucks either! I always thought they were very reasonably priced. We had large scale hobbyists griping about AMS J&S coaches RTR for $275-$300 a pop. AND freight cars at $150 each.

Laser machines are expensive and need constant maintenance and you would like to recoup “some” of the cost of the machine. No sense in giving the kits away! Rio Grande Products UK had beautiful laser cut wood replacement sides for the AMS J&S cars and full on kits for specialized rolling stock. No where else in the world could you find these until GAL started to producing the plastic sides. But again, these kits were about equal to buying the RTR in the first place. At the end you paid about $450-$500 for a well detailed and unique piece of rolling stock. He is now out of business the last I heard (Rio Grande UK). You have to also consider the amount of time you will spend in the designing phase. But that’s a discussion for another time.

Right now, I am building seven 1-1/2 scale electric locomotives patterned after the Pacific Electric box cabs used here in So. California. Usually in THAT hobby, you think you would expect to find “deep pockets”, right? WRONG! We have folks coming up to us as these are being built asking for a price to sell them. We give them a range (in the thousands of dollars) and they look at you like “What! You’re kidding, right?” We have had sales offers of less than the cost of two deep cycle batteries to run them! We are NOT even offering these seven engines for sale. Just a project three of us are doing. A hobby never seems to be a way of making any money in a business. Good luck though. Some have tried it and succeeded. But not many.

#6

I would use it for two cars and that is probably it. Over at that other site there is a coach master class where the drawings are available and used for laser cutting. If it was for the right price I would consider having the entire kit cut. If not I would want at least the seat parts cut. But that is really all I can see using for at this time.

#7

I think Gary hit the nail on the head in a couple of aspects. One most hobbyists are cheap no matter the hobby. There are the elite few but for most of us hobbies are just that. Life demands we spend our money elsewhere. When we can we break down once in awhile and throw money at it. Given that most of us want to get the most mileage for our money we tend to be cheap (frugal is a better word) when we do spend.

Another point is turning a hobby into a business is tough to do. I have watch people over the years try and fail. Some succeed but they are the minority and almost always must expand beyond their original scope to meet a wider demand to bring in the revenue. Then the hobby becomes work and is no longer fun.

What I would say to anyone wanting to do what you are looking to do is do it for yourself and your needs and offer the service to others to help offset your cost of enjoying your hobby. Make it fit your budget and what your willing to spend on your hobby. Then your not over extended and have no expectations. Then when the dough rolls in its all green because you are not counting on it.

Good luck. I hope it works out and I hope you can offer the services. It will be a valuable resource.

PS this is exactly why I have not opened a hobby store in my area. We are in desperate need of one in the Coeur d’Alene area (even Spokane is limited) but to do it would require me to make far to many compromises to my own hobbies with little expectation of sustainable income.

#8

During this off cycle in the hobby you are most likely to make a small fortune.

Of course you’ll have to start with a big one. (http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-money-mouth.gif)

I think the versatility of 3D prints will soon be equal to those wooden kits, for less. It’s a young industry where there’s room to grow.

I cut lumber and build board by board. I am cheap. No sale.

John

#9

John has the right idea- my last THREE 1/20.3 cars were scratchbuilt, except for the trucks, using scrap bits of wood and styrene and hundreds of coffee stirrers.

I’ve built some of Phi’s beautiful cars and cabeese as well, and they are, to my mind, remarkable value for money. However, mention what they actually cost to many people and they nigh-on die of shock. A friend of mine here in UK makes Gauge 1, 1/32 and 10mm scale passenger cars of the old LNER teak coaching stock. They are true-scale models, with the correct 'tumble-home TEAK sides and ends as per prototype - what you would call craftsmans-level models in the US, but pretty average here in UK where we seem to be more used to having to do things that hard way or do without.

These laser-cut coach body kits - without trucks or undercarriage detail - sell for around $450 each. Add the correct trucks and bits and that rises to around $700.

Each.

The ‘Flying Scotsman’ or an A4 Streamliner would need ten or twelve of these to represent the average consist.

Nobody said that you HAD to be rich, but there is no gain-saying that it’s a great help.

tac

Ottawa Valley GRS

#10

Chester,

just compare the forums of today with the forums of some years ago.

you will note, that the quantity of “look what i bought” threads is dwindling away.

your targeted group of customers is fighting with job-loss, debts and the danger of descending from middleclass to rock bottom.

in my opinion definitely not the best time to start producing expensive products.

#11

Build from kits? No, I don’t usually build from kits. I am a cheap bast person and most kits cost a lot of money. Bachmann’s kits being the one glaring exception. I scratch-build or kit-bash, and the basis is usually something I got cheap. So, unfortunatly, I probably would not be a customer of yours.

The one gentleman, who displays at the ECLSTS, has some beautiful laser cut wood kits of the EBT coaches and caboose. I would have brought home some of his kits, but again, they cost a lot of money and I am a cheap…person.

#12

As was mentioned above I might be interested in piece work if the price is not too outrageous. I am a mechanical designer and appreciate the cost of equipment and time so my valuation of what you are asking is a bit higher than most hobbyists. And the Duck Bill Billmyer and Smalls cars are where I am headed.

It will also depend on what software you will be using. I work in high end cad packages and can deliver most formats that a laser cutter might need, others not so much. I will be following this thread with interest.

#13

Chester, I have similar aspirations. My advice would be to just get the thing and start making stuff. That’s what I did. I’m working on my first ‘kit’ now- a general store for my own railroad. It’s quite a learning curve, I’ve been through a lot of plywood! (I have a CNC machine, not a laser though)

But it’s also important that you like to do this. You won’t know till you try. Go for it. I’m finding designing everything, making the tool paths, putting all the parts together, making the molds for the windows and doors and keeping it all straight in my head is harder than I thought it would be. But it is way fun.

Look through the various model rail magazines and check out the competition. There are small companies with ads every month, they wouldn’t be putting them in there if they weren’t making money. Make a better mousetrap! as they say, ha.

Plus, there are other opportunities for ‘making things’ out there. My personal opinion- this is the BEST machine I have ever bought and I saved for a year to get it but it was worth every penny. (My wife freaked when I bought it but she has come around after seeing what it will do)

Martin

http://martinsant.net

#14

The wooden parts of a kit are just a part of the whole process. You need quality castings, some brass rod, maybe some miniature fasteners, trucks, metal wheels, couplers, paint and decals. Phil supplied all of it except paint and some decals.

#15

I model in 1:32 scale, so I must make most of my own stuff. I don’t build kits because there just aren’t any. I’ve got tons (or tonnes) of rolling stock and don’t really need more. I’ve got many 1:32 autos and trucks. But I don’t have many buildings in that scale. I’ve discovered 3D printing, but I really don’t see it as a solution to the “kits” problem.

I’d bet that if I needed more than three or four of something, it would be cheaper (perhaps faster) to make molds and cast them in resin.

If you go ahead with this, you should ask one more question first: “What would YOU buy in kit?”

#16

Thanks everybody for your responses. You’ve given me plenty of food for thought. I’ll take my question a bit farther so you know where I am coming from as many of you don’t know who I am.

I’ve been model railroading since I was 12 yrs. old. I’m now 67. I started in HO and now have an Accucraft Fn3 live steam 4-4-0. My two favorite 3 ft gauge railroads are the Nevada County Narrow Gauge and the South Pacific Coast, both are Calif. railroads that used a lot of Carter Brothers freight and passenger equipment. When I got started in 1:20 scale I wanted some Carter Brothers freight cars and the only company that was making them was a company call Fall River which went out of business before it really got started. Any way flash forward.

Up until 2013 I was working as an independent contractor mechanical designer. At the end of March 2013 I was forced into retirement when my contract with the company I was working for no longer needed me. I now work for a plastics company and its really wearing me down and it’s not something I want to do for the rest of my life.

Now back to the LS 4-4-0. I wanted some Carter Brothers cars for my locomotive to pull. Deerfield River Laser made an On3 Carter Brothers 24ft boxcar for Boone Morrison some years ago so I wrote to Ed Fillion to see if he could make the car in 1:20. We conversed and he said yes. He cut one kit, wood only, and sent it to me. It turned out to be all over sized. That was two years ago. A month ago I wrote to him telling him that I was fed-up waiting for him to get back to my project. He has returned my money and I am still without a Carter Brothers 24ft boxcar.

Now I had made arangements with Bob Hartford to use his 28ft short kit for his Carter Brothers kit to use in my 24ft car with a change of trucks. The 24ft car used a different size truck than the 28ft car. After Bob sold the business to Dave at Ozark Miniatures I made the same arangement with him. Now with DRL not being of any help I thought why not produce it myself and that is where my question has come from.

Now I know there isn’t much call for Carter Brothers equipment like there is for D&RG equipment, but I got a good response over on mylargescale as to who would buy the kit. My second car kit would be a 24ft flat car. But these two cars wouldn’t even pay for a cutter, this I know, thats why my question. I know I would have to expand the offerings to pay for the cutter.

I don’t expect to get rich from this adventure, no far from it. And this is just my opinion but some of the prices for services from other cutters are way to high. I just bought a 7/8’s scale SR&RL 2ft gauge boxcar kit with all but trucks for $325 and that included shipping. When built this boxcar will be larger than a AML Jackson & Sharp passenger car in 1:20. And there where only 25 kits made. Now I contacted GAL about having a set of David Fletchers Carter Brothers passenger cars cut. He wanted $400 a piece with a min order of four cars each. That would be eight cars when I only needed two. And with the .DXF files available there wasn’t any design work to be done. So who is over charging here I ask you. Sorry about that little rant but it shows what I am talking about.

So now taking Dicks advice I’ll ask all of you “What would you like in a kit?” and what kind of prices would all of you pay?

Thank you everybody for your responses. Please keep them coming.

Chester

#17

Bruce, how and where do I get in contact with Phil Dippel?

Thanks.

Chester

#18

I love to build kits. In fact, I rather be building something rather than running trains. I have built several Hartford car kits and a number of structure kits from various manufacturers. As many of you know I’ve also scratch built a couple of things too.

Right now I’m in the process of building a laser-cut styrene kit from the MLS Master Class. (I’ll be reporting ,in detail, later). The kit represents an 1880’s Carter Brothers Combine. I liked this model because it had a duck-bill roof. I purchased this kit from Rick Raively (spelling?) back in 2005 for just under $300 and I think it was well worth every penny. It came with inexpensive trucks but I’ve added Accucraft trucks for better realism. This is the first all-styrene kit I’ve built and it’s great. The .pdf files for all the components are still available on MLS under the Master Class Forum.

Here is a photo of the kit under construction.

Of course, I had to add my own detailing touches such as wood floors. The wood laminate also helps to make the floor more ridged.

I hope more people get involved in manufacturing large scale kits.

Doc Watson

#19

Chester Louis said:

Bruce, how and where do I get in contact with Phil Dippel?

Thanks.

Chester

Chester,

Phil can be reached through his website. All the info you will need to contact him. Link: http://www.philsnarrowgauge.com/

#20

Chester,

I think you have the right idea. Get into the business so YOU can make what YOU want; if you get anybody to buy something that will only help.

I’m not much more into kits; I prefer scratchbuilding now. But, I did use Phil’s kits to get myself started.

While not wanting a kit, I sure wouldn’t mind some parts. Like the roof walk supports - I hate making those.