It’s a poor workman that blames his tools, but sometimes you have to blame those guys! I had an OLD OLD OLD little aluminum mitre box that I used forever and there was a LOT of play in it. I could sometimes cut 90 degree cuts, but usually it was around 88.386812 or so. I got a new one and the razor saw just barely fits. Wow. What a difference.
Perfection what is that? I lean more towards the school of good enough. When building things that will be going outdoors details usually take a back seat to durability. With each building or piece of rolling stock that I build gets better and better and my skills keep expanding.
I think perfection lies in the eyes of the modeller and as long as we do the best we can that is good enough.
Craig,
I understand your point about redoing the 10th cut because you have proven that you can do it with the other 9. But Dave makes a good point that at some point you have to move on or you end up in rutt. But again this is up to you or Dave to decide for yourself. Bob can live with it, you may not be able to. You need to decide for you whether 100% straigh cuts are more important than done. Neither postion is inherently right or wrong. It is subjective
Todd you bring in another very rational argument. Sacrifices must be made if our models are to live outdoors.
Devon,
Think about in terms of a skill that you don’t yet know how to do. Is learning the skill 90% okay, or is learning the skill 100% okay? I want to learn how to solder better, and build a car out of brass. If I say that only 90% of my solders are good enough, what about that last 10%, why can’t those be good enough as well?
Maybe I’ve been influenced too much by what’s going on in the smaller scales, and seeing how those smaller scales are striving for something beyond the norm. Heck, I’ve gotten to the point that I flip through other modeling magazines at the store now to see the level of dedication that other types of modelers are achieving. If plastic is plastic, what’s the difference between building a correct scale model of a P-51 Mustang in 1:48 and a GP-9 in 1:29? Certainly it’s a different set of skills, but why settle for less? Is it because our trains aren’t isolated as single models, but a part of a larger ‘painting’, (track, structures, etc)?
Yes I build “running models”. So fine details are either beefed up, or left off. But I too end up buying a new miter box everey few years or so. Perfection isnt necessary for me, but wanky cuts just dont cut it neither.
I’m with Hollywood on this one. I am my own worst enemy about perfection.
I ALWAYS look at something, and I think, “I need to move it just a bit” and then it always gets worse. I have forced myself to “leave it alone, it looks good, you’re going to make it worse.” At that point I will break something, ruin a decal, or take off too much paint.
I am my own worst critic!
Craig Townsend said:
Devon,
Think about in terms of a skill that you don’t yet know how to do. Is learning the skill 90% okay, or is learning the skill 100% okay? I want to learn how to solder better, and build a car out of brass. If I say that only 90% of my solders are good enough, what about that last 10%, why can’t those be good enough as well?
Maybe I’ve been influenced too much by what’s going on in the smaller scales, and seeing how those smaller scales are striving for something beyond the norm. Heck, I’ve gotten to the point that I flip through other modeling magazines at the store now to see the level of dedication that other types of modelers are achieving. If plastic is plastic, what’s the difference between building a correct scale model of a P-51 Mustang in 1:48 and a GP-9 in 1:29? Certainly it’s a different set of skills, but why settle for less? Is it because our trains aren’t isolated as single models, but a part of a larger ‘painting’, (track, structures, etc)?
Craig,
Trust me when I say I lean far closer to your camp than the good enough camp. But I ask this, at what point do you give into the law of diminishing returns? Ok I would probably agree that if only 90% of my soldier joints were perfect (by my subjective standards) and 10% weren’t, I would give it another go on the 10%. If in another attempt or two I could achieve 92% well then thats worth it. Maybe do that again and get 93%. But at the point that I give it 10 more tries to go from say 96% to 97% I am willing to say 96% is good enough. With the expectation that on my first attempt on the second project I hit 95% then I consider it a success and worthwhile. If not I might spend the rest of my life redoing 4% of my soldier joints and I never have a completed project. Or worse yet I get frustrated and bored and quite altogether on that project and start another project that ends up 90% done because I can not achieve the other 10% to my overly high standards and it gets shelved. or even worse yet I get so mad at my own inability that I throw the damn thing across the room give up altogether (I came close on my MIK build).
But again thats me. I am willing to achieve 90% satisfaction on my current skillset if in the next go around I can achieve 95% on that same skill set on the first try so that a new skillset can be attempted to a 90% satisfaction and I am not wrong. But that may not be you and your not wrong.
In another thread pinewood derby cars were discussed. I have about the same amount of passion for them as I do model RR. under a time crunch I had to accept good enough everytime in order to make race day. My first build was pretty rough but it was the best I could do with the given constraints. the next was better and then next better yet. By my fifth year I had a very cool Daytona Prototype car built with the same constraints of time and material but each year I built on what I had learned the last. In the context of Model RR we may not have the same constraints but we have personal constraints and the same applies in my opinion.
But here again do what is right by you. If your enjoyment comes from the modeling technique and the build as opposed to a completed project then by all means go for it. Take a lifetime to build an exceptional piece of art. However if runing that train in the near future and being able to start on a new project then consider letting go of your ideal of perfection and settle for one bad cut here and there.
Just don’t let me or anyone else influence your idea of what is acceptable.
I am your champion. I want to see the best snow dozer your willing to let yourself build. If that is in a week and there are imperfections then I will enjoy it… if that is in 10 years and it is perfect then I will enjoy it.
Somewhere I have an old magazine with an editorial on standards that talks about the satisfaction of making each model a little better than the last and challenging yourself in the process. The example given was a scratch built O gauge van (four wheel boxcar for those who don’t think in European terminology) where the builder had used the then new technique of simulating rivets with a cube of styrene strip and smoothing it with solvent. Shows how old the magazine is, I think the plan for the next model was to clip the corners of the cubes first.
I’ve also got a write up on the Sunset Valley system that talks about broadbrushing the system into shape to start with - little more than a quick respray for off the shelf gear to start, and once the whole thing was ‘done’ repeatedly revisiting each item and detailing it to progressively higher levels of detail. At any given time the layout looked consistent because everything on it was to one of two levels of detail - the most recent that everything had reached, and the next where it was all in the process of going. The progressive upgrades obviously had the potential to incorporate the steadily improving detail of commercial products as they went.
I think there’s something to be said for both, and maybe trying to combine them. I’m not as venerable as some, but in recent years I’ve come to realise I’m also not as young as I was, and had a few sharp reminders that time might be a finite resource. And I certainly don’t have unlimited time, space, talent or money to put into the perfect model of anything.
It also depends what you want - do you enjoy the process of researching and building a model of X locomotive as accurately as possible and representing every component to the best of your technical ability? Or build and operate a representation of X place with reasonable placeholders? Or a freelanced might-have-been, either rolling stock or line? Or drink beer while watching your aesthetic favourites running round the yard? Or build a new layout every three years? Or what?
I’m mostly of the drinking beer while the trains go by persuasion, but for the foreseeable I’m not going to have the space, so I’m in the planning stages of a modest indoor operational layout (in HOn3 it would fit easily on an internal door including the staging). It’ll fit one of my four incompatible large scale interests and the other three will get running rights.
There’s a bit of a long term plan here - the small layout will enable me to test and develop techniques I’ll need for some of the wishlist stuff on the other three interests. And the layout itself will be to a more or less consistent standard while probably scratching that itch and reducing the bucket list by one.
Case in point is the loco I did for the challenge. While making an attempt to comply with the whimsy condition, it’s designed to be semi-plausible and something I can use on the layout. There were a couple of new things I tried, including simply trying to finish a model in a month - not exactly successful there. But it’s getting there, and I’ve managed not to get distracted by other ideas and leave it half finished so far. When it’s done, the next model off the line - probably the push pull set it’ll run with - will be better. For a given definition of better. I’ll be able to use what I’ve learnt with a little confidence, maybe be a bit faster, and try something else new.
Eventually I’ll get enough experience to have a crack at some of these :
And in the end this is a hobby. I don’t do it to look cool or win accolades, I do it because I find it (mostly) relaxing. If I’ve had a bad day and do some modeling/research/general-scheming after which I’m less likely to kick the cat, that’s a win. It might be a nice to have, but there are no extra points for whether anyone else likes the results. In fact if they get too excited, my blood pressure might start going up again.
J.
Craig,
With you I might put it in another context. As you know I am writing a book. I am struggling with getting all the information. I want to know all there is to know and include it in my book. But if I wait until I have exhausted every possible avenue of research I will probably never write the book, as you know for every door you walk through five more end up infront of you. At some point I have to say I have the best information I can obtain to this point and it is time to write the book. Thankfully you can always write a second edition and mae the corrections and add the new information. In modeling we can say I have done the best I can do at this time and complete my build knowing that there are a few modeling doors that weren’t walked through. I can come back and do a second edition (read next model) and correct my mistakes and add new skill sets.
BTW absolutely one of the better threads I have been involved in, in my opinion. I think we all struggle wit this demaon whereever we fall on the spectrum (oh wait that was another thread).
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I guess the question becomes as I quote Mike C’s (who’s blog I linked too) “Can you live with it?” to my question to him about how far do we go.
As I look at the Snow Dozer build that I’ve done so far, I think, well yes I think I can live with, but as I look and read the drawings in better detail my mind keeps changing. I guess the lesson that I’m learning in this process is that when you have a good set of drawings, study them first instead of trying to be in a big fat hurry to cut and glue! When it’s all said and done I’ll likely keep working on this model as I want to build one out of brass, and this plastic model will be a way to visualize the different steps. I’d rather screw up cutting styrene than cutting brass!
We should entitle this thread the “Philosophy of Modeling” (http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-undecided.gif)
Craig Townsend said:
I guess the question becomes as I quote Mike C’s (who’s blog I linked too) “Can you live with it?” to my question to him about how far do we go.
As I look at the Snow Dozer build that I’ve done so far, I think, well yes I think I can live with, but as I look and read the drawings in better detail my mind keeps changing. I guess the lesson that I’m learning in this process is that when you have a good set of drawings, study them first instead of trying to be in a big fat hurry to cut and glue! When it’s all said and done I’ll likely keep working on this model as I want to build one out of brass, and this plastic model will be a way to visualize the different steps. I’d rather screw up cutting styrene than cutting brass!
We should entitle this thread the “Philosophy of Modeling” (http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-undecided.gif)
Now Craig,
I agree 100% with this post. Everything is spot on with my “Philosophy of “Modeling”. You have to ask yourself “Can you live with it?” and add” What can you take away from it for next time?". Build this snow dozer, make the mistakes learn from them but finish it so you can learn the whole process and not just perfect one part. I honestly believe you will be happier with seven progressively better snow dozers over a ten year period than one “perfect” snow dozer in the same time. I will also bet the seventh one will be better than the one because instead of perfecting one or two techniques you will have learned seven or fourteen new techniques you would have never attempted because you were hung up on the first one or two.
Bruce Chandler said:
It’s a poor workman that blames his tools, but sometimes you have to blame those guys! I had an OLD OLD OLD little aluminum mitre box that I used forever and there was a LOT of play in it. I could sometimes cut 90 degree cuts, but usually it was around 88.386812 or so. I got a new one and the razor saw just barely fits. Wow. What a difference.
LOL I’ve done exactly the same thing, still have the old miter box somewhere 
**Craig Townsend said:…**Is it because our trains aren’t isolated as single models, but a part of a larger ‘painting’, (track, structures, etc)?
I think that plays into it, certainly. There’s an overall context with our model trains which defines how things work together as a whole. For instance, you can take an expertly-detailed and weathered locomotive, put it on shiny stainless steel track running on oversized rocks through an azalea garden, and you’ve completely lost any sense of realism the locomotive might have on its own merits. By a similar token, even on a well-planned garden where everything is relatively in scale, all the rolling stock has to maintain a near-similar level of fit and finish lest one piece stand out and ruin the illusion. Everything has to work together in concert.
Because of that, we have to be careful where we set the bar. Too low, and we get bored because we’re not challenging ourselves. Too high, and we’re always coming up short because nothing is ever good enough. I used to correspond with a modeler who ultimately gave up the hobby because what he wanted and what he could reasonably achieve were too distant. On one hand, I thought that a particularly tragic approach to things–akin to giving up basketball because you’re no Michael Jordan. On the other hand, though, if all you see is disappointment when you look at what you’re trying to accomplish, that saps the fun out of it pretty quick. You either have to compromise your expectations, or make other changes such that you can work at a level which allows you to reach your goals.
It’s up to each one of us to set the bar at a level right for us. Me personally, I’m a confessed rivet counter and realism nut, but I also bow to the realities of running trains in the garden. Durability is one concern, but also there’s a limit for me when it comes to how detailed I wish to get. While I count rivets, I only count the ones I can see. I won’t spend a whole lot of time worrying about details like operating doors on box cars or detailed interiors if no one will ever see them. I very well could; it’s not that I lack the skill. It doesn’t contribute to the overall context of what I’m trying to accomplish in the garden, so there’s limited return on the time I would spend doing so. If company is coming over for dinner, you don’t need to spend time organizing the closets in preparation. I have a level to which I’m comfortable building my models to. They’re not perfect; they’re actually quite plagued with little “mistakes” here and there. But I don’t dwell on 'em, and I don’t go telling folks about 'em, either. Before too long, I’ve forgotten all about them myself. I see the completed model running through my railroad conveying the overall realistic look I want the model to convey. That’s when I know it’s “good enough.”
Later,
K
I guess large scale railroading is much the same as many other hobbies and other things in life. You get to know your capabilities and limits over a period of time and apply these to your expectations. Generally those expectations are realized and often a desire to go ‘the extra mile’ through inspiration - often from others and places like this Forum - or pressiure from friends. This often helps improve your skills or emphasizes your limitations. Over the few years I have been in the hobby I find that I have been great at surveying (using just eyesight) the right of way and laying track also deciding on which era, where it is supposed to be situated and buying the models to complete it all. I have found that I can kitbash freight cars and repaint with a fair degree of sucess but steer very clear of any work on locomotives - even diesels. I have also found that I was able to make a fair represenation of some North American structures - avoiding too much detail - by using lumber particulaly suited to outdoor longevity. These structures ar weighty and therefore unafected by the gales - over up to 100 mph - that we get on this headland. I have always found the KISS system most appropriate and have, in the main, avoided heartache and frusatration with faulty stock and derailments by keeping to it. If I were many years younger I guess my views might be different. The principle disapointent for me - and I know for many others here - is inclement weather which often curtails rairoading enjoyment.
Interesting conversation…
I enjoy scratch building some things, one time… Doing the same exact procedure over and over again, to me, gets tiring and monotonous… When I do build, I’m not one for being a stickler to the small details… My builds are for my visual appearance, to my desire…
Completing the same task over and over is boring… I have so many projects started, and they are usually only about halfway to 3/4’s the way completed, cause I get bored… It’s fun to think of ways to get it done, work the project, experiment with different procedures, but after all that, the boring time sets in and the project sits…
To me, if it looks like a duck, then it is a duck, the amount of feathers makes no difference…
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I have found that my “good enough” efforts change over time. When I first built my 1:20 ten-wheeler, I was quite content to use a wood cab kit and just modify the Annie tender a bit. After a wreck required a rebuild, I went ahead and built my own cab and tender out of styrene. It was so much improved. So, the bar changes. Or can change, depending on your own desires.
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You make a very good point, Bruce. When I look at some of the work I did 45 years ago, I can easily pick apart the mistakes and unevenness. Compared to what I do today, I’m surprised I tolerated the crudeness.
Aquestion for Lou Bruce Kevin and others that have several years and models under you belt. If you achieved the level of perfection that you currently posses on your first and subsiquent builds without improving would it still be enjoyable today?
For me I am most gratified by progression. Not that I like to see my mistakes but I enjoy and am greatly satisfied with each progressively better attempt. It keeps me going. I am a few cars into an HO log flat string that is all boxed up now but it is very montinious. I am going to build 30-40 of these and I really can’t improve to much ( at least not in significant ways). So they have become boring after three or four.
When I did my first set of spines out of chloroplast a few years ago, I was never really happy with them, ran them anyways cause i had them. This last year I built the 3d printed ones, which were much better than the chloroplast, but yet they don’t look prototypical yet so here I am today printed yet another revision of the spine cars. Are they 100% prototypical yet?? NOPE, are they the last set I will make?? Nope
Designing and building gets done by learning from mistakes and making them better the next time, if your not willing to make mistakes you will never get anything done (kinda like that 17 year steamer that was posted)