Large Scale Central

General Motors

General Discussion
#21

TOC, “American” is a broad term. I was just under the dash of my '86 Dodge van. Everything is stamped ‘made in Canada’… My '68 Fury was the same. OTOH I was looking for an oil leak on a customer’s Chevy Monte Carlo…the engine block said “hencho in Mehico”… (yuck!)

addendum: From what I’ve been reading the mangymunt at GM blames much of their troubles on “uncooperative unions”…especially in relation to GM trying to dump their pensions… On one hand, these guys WERE promised… OTOH There are STILL old folks in Homestead, Pa who insist that the union “showed” US Steel that they couldn’t be pushed around – The steel plant closed 25 some odd years ago. Who showed Whom?

#22

True.
However, guar-an-freaking-teed, the 100HP Flathead V-8’s in my Fords are US made.
Period.
As is everything else.

You won’t find a “Made in China” tag on the base of my 2100-AA1 carburettor.
Nor an “Hecho en Mexico” sticker on my Autolite Generator.

Hell, you won’t even find an emissions sticker!

#23

Like what you drive, drive what you like, but for me until I am convinced the big 3 can match the J-cars in quality and reliability, forget it. I’m out, too many horror stories from past owners…

#24

Half a million miles on my 50 Tudor.
300K on the pickup.

I’ll keep driving them for now.

#25

298K on my van, and still going (the body is held together with aluminum flashing, pop rivets, duct tape and undercoating tho…

#26
Victor Smith said:
Like what you drive, drive what you like, but for me until I am convinced the big 3 can match the J-cars in quality and reliability, forget it. I'm out, too many horror stories from past owners...
I have no doubt that GM matches the quality of any Japanese car. The last two Buicks I've owned have been flawless and trouble free. That being said, those Honda Civics from the 90's are indestructible. I think Honda must have painted them all silver, because that seems to be the only color I ever see them. Ralph
#27

My 2009 Camaro (I wish) is not built in the US!
It is built entirely up in HJ’s country.
Canada!

#28
John Bouck said:
My 2009 Camaro (I wish) is not built in the US! It is built entirely up in HJ's country. Canada!
Assembled in Canada. Parts may be stamped in US. Engine probably comes from US. Quite a few GM cars are assembled in Canada. Ralph
#29

Never understood where the “fable” of Japanese car superiority cam from…I really don’t. Every one, and I mean everyone made junk in the late 70’s/80’s. Had a 1970 Datsun 240z, I am not kidding when I say the engine FELL OUT! I was told by the tow truck driver the frame had literally rotted away! Found out this was a common problem with 240’s exposed to road salt. A friend had a Celica that was so rusted you could see the engine through the front quarters! See a lot of old US iron on the roads, can’t recall the last time I saw a true Datsun on the road in this part of the country.

I believe they got their perception of “better” because when the first oil crisis hit they were getting 20+ to the gallon and American iron was down in the 9-15 range. Today’s cars from just about any manufacturer are a joy to own. Most have very little trouble, always the exception.

#30

I also remember when the first oil crisis hit.
I remember following Russkies around the Med…
When I got out in SEP74, we drove back out west in OCT74, climbed up west out of Denver, held the loud pedal down on the 50, and passed all them rice-burners that were creeping up the hill in the truck lane.

Dropped down in overdrive, at 55, I got 26MPG with it.

Not bad for a car that old.

Remember once coming out of Bakersfield, crested at Gorman at 100 even.
All them rice-burning pieces of japcrap creeping up the hill…

Heck, this Jag gets about 30 on the highway.

If I had a buck for every head gasket I changed on a japcan, I’d be one rich SOB.

Dat-soons, later Nisan’s, could not keep exhaust studs in them.
Then they tried that stupid Bosch fuel injection with the air door.

Toyotas.
I remember when we were changing radiators out at 25K.
Seems they built them from scrap brass, and hadn’t quite gotten the stuff melted right.

They literally came apart.

Ever worked on a 411 Datsun?

Could NOT get parts from Datsun, but you went down to the Leyland dealer and there they were.

Copied an MG engine, they did.

Flathead 60’s.
“The Thrifty Sixty”.
Favourite of the quarter midget crowd (when they couldn’t afford Offy’s).
So, France picks up the tooling when Ford is done.
Makes them clear into the 60’s.

Except they “metrified” it.
NOTHING fit.
Guys would buy them at swap meets, thinking they had a good block, and the mains wouldn’t fit, pistons, cam bearing, valve guides…

#31

One of them yakking morons on the radio today was saying how we should let the US auto makers fail. Then they might re-organize under bankruptcy and come back competitive…

The union guys could then either work for them without the union, or go pick fruit… Would kill 2 birds with one stone… Cars would be cheaper and there would be fewer jobs that “no American wants”

Darn easy to say that somebody else should lose their decent paying job and work for nuthin (minimum wage sure doesn’t buy much besides hot dogs and ramen noodles – and moving elsewhere isn’t always an option). Those talking heads should volunteer to try it first… Or maybe re-read “The Jungle” to see what things really used to be like in the “good old days”…

BTW last I heard Mich’s unemployment rate was already dead last in the country at something like 8.9%…

#32

Mik,
You’re starting to sound…unRepublican :slight_smile:

The big three have been downsizing for years, outsourcing a lot of parts. So although they now have only 140,000 employees, there is an estimated 3,000,000 jobs at stake including suppliers.
And the manufacturing capacity is essential to national security. Since we no longer make shoes, we better have a ride to the battle.
Ralph

#33

Just about everything is “out-sourced” now on the JIT (Just-in-time) program.
Very little is made by the big three themselves. They just assemble it and stick their name on the trunk.
A while ago, some axle and bearing vendor struck and GM was without products for quite a while.
The Chevrolet dealership where my wife has connections had hardly anything in stock. I asked why and was told about the above: Lack of axles and bearings at the assembly line.

When those mooks at Boeing struck recently, they shut down an entire vendor plant here in Spokane that makes floor panels for them. Everyone laid off until those jokers ratified the contract.

Just the opposite effect.
Each one depends on the other.

#34
Ralph Berg said:
Mik, You're starting to sound..............unRepublican :)
Ralph, I be a social conservative and an economic moderate. To quote a friend of mine, "I'm what a republican USED to BE before the neo-cons pretty much hi-jacked the party." Trying to live on disability makes you look REAL hard at what things really are and aren't. From where I'm at the left is wrong because big government is inherently wasteful and inefficient, and has too many stupid conflicting rules. -AND- The far right is also wrong because they are either lying to themselves or everybody else when they argue free market capitalism is ALWAYS best (it is if you're a top dog with no morals, but not for most) They really want to be free to let everyone else go to hell without any guilt.

Clear as mud?

BTW, my experience with unions is, in general they go too far. They protect guys who don’t do their jobs based solely on seniority, they create needless complexities in just getting a lot of things done in a reasonable time and manner (“Not MY job”), and often stifle innovation… A decent rate of pay is one thing, putting your members out of work altogether by forcing the company out of business through greed and an unnecessary adversarial attitude is another. (Getting the Mob out of the union business might help too)

#35

Unions.
Good and bad.
I worked for a few years in a union shop. When I started I asked the steward why union? I soon learned why. Management were a bunch of jerks to deal with.
He said that when this shop started up, over the course of a few years, the owners started omitting raises, never giving more than a weeks vacation to anyone, took sick leave away, offered no retirement or insurance, etc. They needed the union to “deal” with the owners, because they wouldn’t sit down with us.

Another shop I worked at, we voted “no” on unionising three times.
The owners gave us better benefits than a union could, with more perks, “open door management”, raises, sick leave, retirement,
health insurance, etc.

Unions.
Good and bad.

#36

John - 100% the way I see it too. If companies would just realize that if they treated their employees fairly then unionizing becomes much less desirable.

My wife works at a school that is the government employees union. Her pay is low, but comparable to other schools, she has great insurance, a small retirement benefit and lots of time off (un-paid). Most of her co-workers think the union costs them money in dues and gives no benefit. The way my wife and I see it is that the union protects them from the taxpayers who scream every year at budget time about cutting the insurance. If it weren’t for the value of that insurance, the job would not be worth doing.

Most of the companies I’ve worked at have cared enough about their employees that unionization wasn’t needed. I’m not so sure about the one I work for now, but I’m “management” so I wouldn’t benefit from any organization.

#37

One of the big reasons the Big 3 are doing so poorly in Michigan is the high taxes they have to pay, that and the union contracts they have. Now, I don’t fault the unions for getting as big a piece of the pie as they can, but I think they should be flexible, too.

The auto plants outside of Michigan are not in trouble, or at least do not appear so, to me. Low taxes and treating their employees right seem to be a smarter way to go.

#38
Steve Featherkile said:
One of the big reasons the Big 3 are doing so poorly in Michigan is the high taxes they have to pay, that and the union contracts they have. Now, I don't fault the unions for getting as big a piece of the pie as they can, but I think they should be flexible, too.

The auto plants outside of Michigan are not in trouble, or at least do not appear so, to me. Low taxes and treating their employees right seem to be a smarter way to go.


I can show you 100 factories within an hour or two of here that have closed in the last 8 years. Not one Union shop. N & S Carolina are not known for their high taxes.
And our current President’s answer to this problem is warn us against Protectionism.
Ralph