Large Scale Central

Future direction of Train Forums

For many years now I have followed the rise and fall of train-related forums, hoping to find those that have a high modelling content. Alas, it seems that the modelling side of the hobby has stagnated, as the range of ready to run models on dealers’ shelves multiplies.

In general, train-related discussion has become very basic and to a degree, tedious, as the overall experience level of members declines. Electrical problem discussion is generally what one could derive from any basic model railroad electrical instruction booklet. The only real advance seems to be discussion on battery remote control and DCC systems (both of which I have little interest in at present).

The hobby, these days, is basically what I just purchased at the hobby store or the latest arrival from the postman. Maybe I am old- fashioned, but I remember days of old when the early Model Railroader magazines offered scale drawings, extensive reviews of new equipment and electrical projects. Information was readily available to assist the hobbyist and scratch builder. They were like a ‘Boys Own’ Annual. This is what I would like a forum to be, not just a discussion of what the postman just delivered. I like my mind to be stimulated and alas there has not been much of that lately on the usual sites.

I really do not think that the situation is going to change in the future and feel that ‘hand-on modelling’ has been replaced by ‘ready to run’.

Tim,

I like your observations, but I think I can offer some contrast.

The last quarter of 2008 was the worst financial performance in 16 year of business. Last January things started to improve. Please understand most years I have a good amount of business up through November, and then very little until late January or February. This experience is different.

One asset you did not address is the plans, pics, and articles on the net which replace the magazine features. In GRwe had a monthly planset which would give us the basis to produce a good model. What Northeast Shortline experience was everything the hobby was going through, particularly the shift from 22.5 to 1 (meter gauge) to 20.3 to 1 (3 ft. Narrow gauge). The authors had an interesting approach to producing details. The most interesting to me was the “how-to” stake pockets, basically a ‘staple’ and cardstock. Anyone on a small budget could produce the model. Of course we sophisticates knew that stake pockets castings could be purchased from the likes of Ozark miniatures.

I am quite pleased with R/C and battery for motive power, with a couple of buttons I blow the whistle, and ring the bell for a short period of time. And frankly, I am not looking for any more.

Actually, Tim I think what you and I experienced in Model Railroader is still available in Garden Railroad. The staff does a generally nice job of bringing new items to us.

I think both you and I are suffering from “an accumulation of our knowledge and experience”. It is amazing what we have learned over the years, self taught for sure, but still a staggering amount of info. Asking some sources to keep up with our needs and keep the newbies interested is a challenge.

I am empathetic, but I think we have to be a bit more generous with our criticisms. If you can’t tell I agree with you, but think you have overlooked how we have changed.

Barry - BBT

I think we are blessed with many excellent modelers on this forum.
Forums flow in what ever direction the users take them
We have many great “how to” features here.
Want more emphisis on modeling…then submit more. It is that simple.
At least here I don’t have to wade through 500 posts on the “Big Boy” which cost more than many of my automobiles have over the years.
Ralph

It’s “the midas touch of expertise.” The curse of my life, to be honest. The more knowledge/ability I acquire, the less interesting the subject becomes. Mastery can be boring. Learning is fun

mike omalley said:
It's "the midas touch of expertise." The curse of my life, to be honest. The more knowledge/ability I acquire, the less interesting the subject becomes. Mastery can be boring. Learning is fun
Then you need to be the teacher. Plenty of us here still need to learn. Ralph

Barry,
In days past when I posted significantly on MLS, of my 1800 odd postings, the majority were in the Model making section. In several years I asked only two prototype questions regarding the use of headlamps during daytime operation. Most of my postings were of my latest projects, of which there were many and answering questions for others. The MLS Model making forum has stagnated, along with the Master Class section. The majority of emphasis is now on new products or new modellors asking information on latest equipment or fixing a problem with their equipment. It seems the emphasis has shifted from railroad modelling to railroad reviewing.

     I very rarely enter the Garden Railways site or the Bachmann site,  but when I do,  nothing has changed and it seems,  other than the chosen children, or round the tree Christmas modellors, relatively few post there.  An English site that I posted my model making on has an emphasis more on 'showing off' the latest and the model making carried out is minimal.  It seems to me that the emphasis in modelling has shifted dramatically away from the 'old days' when we made do with what we had,  to the current,  if you can think of it,  it most likely is already on the shelves.

    I remember the discussion some years ago on MLS about upcoming 1/20.3 models and the lament that a scale-sized coach would be merely a pipedream along with a 'big' narrow-gauge locomotive.  Well,  manufacturers responded with a surge in 1/20.3 rolling stock and a coach and eventually a combine as ready to run.  Maybe this is the direction the hobby is headed and the 'hands on' people are the new dinosaurs.   

    This is not intended to be a criticism of the way the hobby is heading,  but more a lament that a skills base will be lost.  The recent demise of scale parts and kit suppliers has added fuel to the fire.  They also will become victims of the change.  I am stimulated by every new project that appears on this site,  from the very basic,  to the most incredibly detailed models.  Each new modelling attempt at 'hands on' railroading represents a resistance to the dilemma that is a ready to run future.

I think we are seeing this in more than just the Large Scale portion of the hobby. I still also model in HO (some O also) and have watched the hobby shops go from a parts place to a new car showroom. Yes, some times I buy already built because I don’t have the time to build it. But I do miss the old stick kits and scratch building. I think a lot of people have been attracted to the hobby because they now don’t have to invest a lot of time in building (whether from a kit or from scratch) what they need. There are still those of us who enjoy the time spent building things, but I think I’m like a lot of people in today’s world - there is too much demand for my time and if I want to accomplish the railroad I want, I have to chose the items I spend a lot of time on and understand I will purchase and make due with the rest, though “the rest” will be at least be weathered so it doesn’t look like everyone else’s model. I do agree I wish there were more construction articles, but I am fortunate that my dad started modeling in the early 30’s in OO (I still have a lot of his scratch built buildings - still work with HO just fine) and have a good library of books and magazines from which to pull articles. Even though they may not be my scale (1:20.3), they do scale up well and sometimes I have to figure out how to make something work in the larger scale that would not work as described in the original article.

My 2 cents.

Steve,
definately available time is the essence. I am retired and basically, my time is able to be devoted to my pursuits. My main interest is in building and so my elaborate outdoor railroad is really little more than a test track for my latest project. Once run a few times, invariably they all finish up on a shelf or in storage. For those that operation is their interest, then there is definately a need for ready to run. As a collector as well, my main ‘ready to run’ purchases are simply to check, box and store. My main emphasis though, is on construction and it is this part of the hobby, that to me, is being left behind.

I love scratch building, and all of my structures are/will be scratch built. Eventually I’ll have at least some scratch built rolling stock, as well as kitbashed.

In the meantime, I need something to run. So I make do with RTR stuff, which I repaint and weather to make it both unique and more realistic.

I plan to kitbash some locos too, but I don’t have the tools or skills to scratch build a complete loco, and probably never will. (I think I’m in the majority there.) And so far, I don’t really have any interest in the electrical and motor/gearing stuff. I’d rather leave that to the experts and spend my time doing the fun stuff.

We need commercial products to get started in the hobby, and to provide kitbashing fodder, as well as allowing us to concentrate on the areas we enjoy most.

On the other hand, I do agree that too many people have an “if I can’t buy, I’m not interested” approach to model railroading, and not just in large scale. Sadly, this is true in other hobbies as well. I think most of these folks just don’t know what they’re missing.

Certainly a large portion of the blame can be placed on “Madison Avenue’s” cultivation of instant gratification. Some probably belongs to parents who would rather buy something for their kid than take the time to encourage a real hobby. And some is due to the hectic pace of modern society, which leaves many people with little time for slower pursuits.

Tim,

I don’t know how old you are but I date back to the late forties and early fifties in my model railroad history. Most of what was written then had to do with making models from available resources. Except for a few professional model builders most railroad modeling was more “compromise” than exact scale modeling.

Locomotive kits were all metal zamac castings, rolling stock kits were metal, wood and cardboard and structures mostly cardboard with windows, doors and siding printed on. A popular series in MR was “Kitchen Table Locomotives” where lokies were built almost entirely from wood utilizing broom handles, etc, for boilers.
O Scale was considerably ahead of HO in many ways with some beautiful bronze and brass kits from Lobaugh for example, but these required a level of expertise to properly assemble that exceeded the average RR modeler’s abilities.

Gradually parts and more highly detailed kits became available for those with modeling instincts but so too by the late fifties did ready built brass locomotives, notably in HO that revolutionized everybody’s rosters. There were lamentations about bringing to an end the scratchbuilders not to mention the professional custom builders but it didn’t happen.

There was an even bigger outcry when ready to run plastic rolling stock became available. No serious modeler wanted that “plastic junk” on his layout! Hehe! I have to confess to a similar ire from myself. Ruination!!! However as the quality improved and we got over the initial repugnance the plastic stuff was gradually accepted until finally even locomotives were rolling merrily on our layouts. Too, the newer model railroaders came onto the scene after the fact and mostly just merged into the status quo.

It is only natural that the current batch of forum participants as well as readers in the model railroad press should be interested in those items readily available and with which they are familiar. Not much call these days for a review on a Mantua Mikado or a Silver Streak reefer kit. Also dedicated magazines are in a kind of trap not of their own making in that they must have appeal for the widest possible audience. This precludes having an overabundance of articles that are over the heads of newer modelers.

As we progress through familarity and knowledge in our chosen hobby niche we tend to leave much of the published word behind. This is a natural result of our interest and progress but the future is coming up behind us still learning the things we long ago dismissed as obvious and maybe even a bit boring now.

I don’t think the skill level will be lost but it will be changed. There will most certainly come a time when people will wonder how “those modelers in the dark ages” ever got along without a CDC machine in their garage to replicate all those small indesribable parts needed for decent modeling.

I think your concern about change is well founded but it is a concern that has been expressed every couple of decades and hasn’t ended in ruin yet. I don’t think it will in the foreseeable future either. Maybe largescale in the scales and format that we know it will disappear as others have in the past but as long as there are railroads there will be model railroaders some of which will push the envelope in search of new perfections.

Richard,
I have been modelling for fifty years. My earliest trains were ‘O’ scale clockwork tinplate, on tinplate trackwork. I have memories of the Zamac-based kits with lots of timber and cardboard and lots of ingenuity/imagination needed to complete them. My early ‘OO/h.o.’ equipment was very crude, by today’s standards and very poorly detailed. I could not afford the beautiful brass ‘shelf queens’. I found that a bit of balsa wood, some wire, paint and glue could do wonders. Maybe it was the crudeness of the models that inspired my modelling? Today’s modellor really has to do little to improve on what the manufacturer supplies and so further kitbashing is not mandatory, to have a well detailed model. Look to the current 1/20.3 scale equipment from Accucraft and Bachmann. These are true museum quality models, supplied ready to run.

        Are today's modellors spoiled?

Tim, et al;

Very thoughtful group you have attracted, Tim. One of the things that I am most proud of is being able to supply drive kits/power for the scratch builder. nd honestly I am getting more interesting requests that I have ever had.
For example, I have supplied a 2-8-2, a Uintah 2-6-6-2, two Beyer Garretts a 2-6-6-2 and a 4-6-2-2-6-4. Currently working a another C-16. and a SPC 110. I base my pricing on the conversion kits I make, so the pricing is not off the scale.

My point is I am seeing more loco scratch building than ever. I think that many of the builders, do beautiful work but are not interested in tooting their own horn.

The 2-8-2 builder, the Beyer-Garrett builder and a builder in Houston(although commercial) doesn’t brag on his work. Tim it’s there but we here aren’t hearing enough be comfortable.

If you like I can forward some pics I have received, for your own use. I don’t have permission to publish.

Barry - BBT

Some of the work showing here of late is excellent.
I don’t think model building is dead. Far from it.
However, with the economy the way it is Worldwide don’t be surprised to see a reduction in the offerings from the manufacturers, if anything at all.
There are some quite good body mouldings already available for kitbashing lcoos, but many of the mechanisms in commercially available locos are pretty junky.
I believe you will see an increasing number of Large Scalers moving towards doing more for themselves rather than buying it RTR out of the box.
Maybe not complete scratchbuilding on a commercial chassis but certainly kit bashing an existing body shell on a robust chassis like Barry makes.

I think Barry has earned the right to be highly regarded in his field and I predict an ever increasing number of customers for his products.
They are well thought out, perform well, are robust and value for money.

I don’t think the number of model builders has decreased, but the number of “out of the box” guys has increased to where the model builders are less of the total population. I don’t think that’s a bad thing, because the stuff coming out of the box these days is pretty darned good! You can create a very well-detailed railroad without having to lift so much as an x-acto knife. One no longer need be a top-flight model builder to have a solid railroad. I think that has the advantage of attracting more people to the hobby, or at least not scaring them off. Those of us who enjoy building models still do so, despite the excellent choices we have for equipment. Our advantage is that we can now spend time building the stuff we want to build, rather than the stuff we have to just to have equipment for the railroad.

Later,

K

Once again, Kevin nails it.

I agree 100% that having product available that caters to the RTR* folks brings more people in and allows them to be satisfied with their layout which keeps them in the hobby. Some of these folks who join forums and read the magazines see the kitbashing and modeling going on and may just be inspired to give it a try. These are the folks you master modelers need to cultivate in order to keep the skills alive.

I kind of fit the description above. I did car kit modeling as a kid, built Estes rockets as a young adult, but never did much train modeling until recently. Inspired by what I’ve seen on the forums I first tried super detailing, then kitbashing and recently scratch building. I’ve had a lot of help from the more experienced among us and if I say so myself, I think a tiny bit of those skills were passed on :smiley:

  • RTR Ready to Run borrowed from the R/C Plane industry

I would love to participate in one of the master classes at MLS, but it’s always narrow gage and it’s always earlier than we roughly model.
I’m interested in standard gage from the late 40s or 50s. Modelers overwhelmingly seem to prefer 1:20. I’m not sure why that is–I’ve got no problems with it, but it’s not my preference. Why the preference for narrow gage among modelers? Or am I wrong, and I just think most modelers work in narrow gage?

A look on MLS at the beautiful live-steam Mason Bogie should serve to cheer you all up a bit - especially those whose interest lies in the narrow gauge area. As for those who have hankering for standard gauge, the four [I think] F-scale GN 4-8-4s go a long way toward restoring faith in scratch-building, even though they are really in the realms of model engineering, much like a ride-on live steamer, more than the garden railways we are familiar with here. My 7.25" gauge Romulus, 1/3 full-size, runs on smaller radius track than THOSE beasts.

I’m told that around $15K might just get you one of these four masterpieces…but since they are not the SP&S #700, I’m not interested.

Well, that’s MY excuse.

Best to most

tac
www.ovgrs.org

I agree that the LS forums are heavily biased toward narrow gauge.
Again, the way to change this is for the standard gauge people to contribute more.
2245 members here. Maybe 20 contribute regularly. And most of that 20 are narrow gauge people.
Ralph

Mike,

Not everything is Narrow Gauge. If you’ve seen AndyC’s auto racks, they aren’t narrow gauge. Neither is Bob Temper’ figures. Maybe you’ve got to look a little more to find the examples, but the principal of modeling is the same.

Model Railroader sent me a survey not to long ago and it asked the same stupid questions all their surveys have asked for many years. But at the end there was a comments section. I took the opportunity to let them know all their magazines offered nothing more than a few decent pictures and way too many ads. I told them the internet offers many more options in the form of forums where discussions are open ended. Projects are laid out in step by step form. People share their work with everyone. Excellent pictures are plentiful, movies are waiting to be viewed and everyone has access to them 24 hours a day. They are also free for the most part. But if a site does charge a membership fee it’s so cheap compared to a magazine subscription nobody in their right mind will buy the magazine that comes out monthly or bimonthly instead of the online sites. I also mentioned how their own site is lacking and has far too many “pay” for these articles…

I think the forums will stay around for a while. And get better as things evolve. The current economy may even push the RTR buyers into the world of fine scale modeling and scratch building.

Jon.