Ken.
Instead of relying upon Wikipedia for misinformation, perhaps you would do well to watch this through:
http://vodpod.com/watch/984192-the-hidden-war-history-of-south-ossetia-abkhazia
As is usual this is a conflict that goes back a very long time.
Sure it is a mess, but the bottom line is Georgia invaded South Ossetia. Palin should acknowledge that fact and not pretend Russia is to blame for the recent hostilities.
TonyWalsham said:
Ken.Instead of relying upon Wikipedia for misinformation, perhaps you would do well to watch this through:
http://vodpod.com/watch/984192-the-hidden-war-history-of-south-ossetia-abkhazia
As is usual this is a conflict that goes back a very long time.
Sure it is a mess, but the bottom line is Georgia invaded South Ossetia. Palin should acknowledge that fact and not pretend Russia is to blame for the recent hostilities.
Paul
I’m well aware of that Tony, the disputes in that area go back beyond recorded history, I’ve certainly looked at other sources, but the Wikipedia info seemed to support the other sources and I didn’t see it as a source of misinformation.
I could be wrong as I’m far from being an expert on the matter, but it appears that there are recognized international rules and procedures that one goes through to become a “sovereign nation” and evidently Ossetia didn’t follow those rules and therefore any claims by them were condemned by the rest of the international community as well as Russia. It is within the border of Georgia and any attempts by Georgia to quell the disturbances in the region were entirely justified given the amount of “ethnic Georgians” that live in the area.
As for blaming Russia, it seems Palin is in the majority in that concern.
Ken Brunt said:
I'm well aware of that Tony, the disputes in that area go back beyond recorded history, I've certainly looked at other sources, but the Wikipedia info seemed to support the other sources and I didn't see it as a source of misinformation.I could be wrong as I’m far from being an expert on the matter, but it appears that there are recognized international rules and procedures that one goes through to become a “sovereign nation” and evidently Ossetia didn’t follow those rules and therefore any claims by them were condemned by the rest of the international community as well as Russia. It is within the border of Georgia and any attempts by Georgia to quell the disturbances in the region were entirely justified given the amount of “ethnic Georgians” that live in the area.
As for blaming Russia, it seems Palin is in the majority in that concern.
South Ossetia was and still is fiercely independent of all other influences.
Finally Russia has recognised their status. Again.
As to any state becoming independent.
The only method that has worked successfully throughout history is through the barrel of the gun.
The USA of all places, with the assistance of the French, should know that.
Breaking away may be dressed up in the niceties of diplomacy but ultimately force is the only method that works.
TonyWalsham said:
As to any state becoming independent.The only method that has worked successfully throughout history is through the barrel of the gun.
The USA of all places, with the assistance of the French, should know that.
Breaking away may be dressed up in the niceties of diplomacy but ultimately force is the only method that works.
Of course the are gun barrels involved, I’m just pointing out that there are many instances, especially in recent history, where gun barrels don’t seem to have been the determining factor. I may be wrong; its outside my specific expertise
Ralph Berg said:Looks like Colin Powell agrees. And you guys think I'm a liberal :lol: Ralph
"Legal" issues aside, Mr. Saakashvili stepped in some sh*t. Mr Saakashvili did not act very wisely, even if you recognize South Ossetia as a part of Georgia. Forcing people to join or remain with your nation is a futile act. Ralph
"And Powell, who served President Bush from 2001-2005, sought to allay suspicions that Russia was turning into a second Soviet Union, even though it acted “brutally” in its conflict last month with Georgia.
It was “foolhardy,” he said, for Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili to “light a match” with a military operation in South Ossetia to forcibly reassert is authority over the breakaway region."
Um, can I make a (probably futile) point. How is it OK for South Osettians (or whatever they want to call themselves) to “vote” to secceed from the nation of Georgia… but the people of Alaska (who were denied the right to vote whether to even JOIN the US back in '59) are “traitors” (or worse) to even CONSIDER the same??? By the same token shouldn’t the Australian aborigines be allowed to vote to “opt out” of Australia proper?
Fuzzy logic? Or just more partizan bullsh#t and misdirection?
What? Mik, that’s a strange argument
As I posted before, it’s fine by me if Alaskans want to talk about secession–they can talk about it all they like. It’s odd to me that the republicans should run a candidate with such close ties to secessionists–I’d never vote for someone who wanted any state to secede. But if you want to, go ahead. You’ll need to modify your avatar, but go ahead and vote for 49 states if you like. All I ever said was Palin should have to issue a public statement clarifiying her relationship to Alaskan secession.
But what does that have to do with Oseettia? Osettia’s not my country, and neither is Georgia. And also, speaking for myself here, I never said it was “ok” for S. Osettia to secede, I only pointed out–like everyone else–that this is not simply a black/white issue in which Russia is 100% the bad guy, rather it’s a complex issue with a long history that requires knowledge and intelligence to deal with.
Can you explain to me how this is hypocritical? or “misdirection?”
I’m still waiting for Palin to clarify her position on secession.
Just following the argument to it’s logical conclusion…rather than lopping it off where it becomes “inconvenient”.
It was also said above that it was OK that Georgians living in that part of Georgia were denied the right to vote in the referendum as well…something about them not “belonging” there. If you follow THAT logic to it’s natural conclusion then the only persons who should be ALLOWED to vote where I live would be those with Indian blood (Iriquois, Seneca, and Huron) since the land here was STOLEN from them in the first place (What else would you call it if somebody built their house in your yard and ran you off with a gun when you objected?)
How is it “partisan”?.. It became partisan when the SAME press people who apolgize for Russia’s actions (and condemn ours) say Palin’s husband is a traitor and she is suspect, for even considering a vote on whether Alaska should be an autonomous region. The problems with Biden’s kids gets scant airplay. Obama’s strange relationship with the convicted influence pedder gets mostly ignored, as do his singular LACK of measurable accomplishments DESPITE his steallar intellect and charisma (and how Rev Wright went from a “mentor” and “like a member of the family” to “we barely attended and I didn’t pay that much attention” is brushed under the table). But since Palin isn’t a liberal pollie she gets to endure having the press crawl up her behind with a flashlight.
MIK,
Did you actually watch that video link I posted?
http://vodpod.com/watch/984192-the-hidden-war-history-of-south-ossetia-abkhazia
It does explain exactly the history of the situation and so far no one here has refuted any of the evidence it portrays.
My point in this whole thread has been that Palin made a “misstatement” regarding who started the conflict in Georgia.
She either knew the truth and lied or she doesn’t know the true situation and was only mouthing what she had been told.
I am making no comment one way or the other as to her “credentials” to be a VP.
BTW.
The Australian Kooris (aboriginal natives) could in theory get a vote set up for independence if they wanted to.
Tony, yes, I watched it. And noticed it’s poorly concealed pro-Russian, anti-Georgian (and anti-west) stance as well. As for it being “factual”, one can spin things to suit just about any purpose through careful selection and omission without ever lying. Our own press and pollies often do it, so why should I believe some foreign press people didn’t?
Is our government supporting the “wrong” side? It has propped up some real stinkers in the past… Batista, Pahlavi, Thiệu, and various other petty dictators… for politically expedient rather than humanistic or even particularly moral reasons. However, I’m not certain their successor governments were all that much better.
Give South Ossetia it’s freedom. Fine by me. But then shouldn’t we also give south Florida back to the Seminole and the Eastern Carolinas to the Cherokee? They didn’t ask to be shoved off their ancestral lands and their cultures “cleansed” either.
Mik.
Sure it could be pro Russian. That is the whole point. It is another point of view. Instead of the immediate bias shown by Western Media the day Russia retaliated to Georgian aggression.
I am still waiting to see any contrary evidence to that point of view in the video.
It is a matter of fact that South Ossetia was given autonomous status in the USSR by Stalin in 1922. Another murderous Georgian. They enjoyed this autonomous status until Georgia tried to claim the territory for itself.
Also, don’t forget that the USA backed Saddam Hussein against Iran when it suited them to.
It is not my place to comment on any domestic USA politics and that includes the possibility of any seccessionist movements.
TonyWalsham said:
(1)I am still waiting to see any contrary evidence to that point of view in the video. (2)It is a matter of fact that South Ossetia was given autonomous status in the USSR by Stalin in 1922. Another murderous Georgian. They enjoyed this autonomous status until Georgia tried to claim the territory for itself.(3)Also, don’t forget that the USA backed Saddam Hussein against Iran when it suited them to.
(4)It is not my place to comment on any domestic USA politics and that includes the possibility of any seccessionist movements.
(1.) “Evidence” may be long in coming for a very good reason. MOST Americans are hopelessly provincial. They neither know much about world history or geo-politics, nor particularly give a hoot. Beyond it’s partisan value of making President Bush (and by extension Governor Palin and every other person they have political differences with) look like an unqualified bumpkin, I’m not certain many actually really much CARE about what is happening to a few thousand people in Eastern Europe.
(2.) Stalin did a few other things for questionable purposes, but just because he chose NOT to deal with this particular issue, or to deal with it in this way doesn’t mean we won’t have to or can’t deal with it differently. Alaska was rather autonomous until annexed (as was Hawaii, and for that matter, Texas.) Unkle Josef doesn’t really have a very good, for lack of a better term, reputation, over here. I think you might say many Americans, especially older ones would rate him as “evil” if asked. How much is based upon fact and how much propaganda, I don’t know, and I’m not sure they care. The view of many of our citizens (I dare say almost an entire generation) of the Russian government is STILL rather tainted by a comment made by darling Nikkie at the Polish Embassy in November of 1956. Like I said, we’re a “provincial” people in many ways, stubborn insistence that “WE” are right is one of them…except we usually can’t even agree amongst ourselves.
Not sure of your point. We also backed a fellow named Minh when he was fighting the Japanese during WWII, and dumped him as soon as the war ended, and some guy named Bin Laden when he was fighting the Soviets…those came back and bit us in the ass later too. Some people (and governments) NEVER learn.
Comment away. It’s the only way we’ll ever learn what the rest of the world REALLY thinks about us.
Something to think about. There are actually many Americans (mostly older) who actually believe that 1. President Bush is directly responsible for the high price of gasoline here, and/or 2. He should “do” something about it. And that his supposed inaction is because he is “an oil man”. Nevermind that much of the cause is due to world market forces beyond his control, and that “doing something” would constitute a grevious abuse of presidential powers and probably only make things worse in the long run. I only bring it up in the sense that it is germaine as far as trying to understand how much of the American people think… or perhaps more precisely REACT emotionally without much thinking
Mik.
Whether or not South Ossetia deserves to be independent is beside the point really.
To me the only thing that matters in life is that the people we elect to power be honest.
In my 65 years I have learnt that it doesn’t matter what the political persuasion is of any one person as long as they are honest. Honest people mostly do the right thing. But then honest people cannot get into power. That is how it works. The best we can hope for is the least worst.
BTW. I think annexation is not quite the right word to describe the USA acquisition of Alaska. Alaska was part of Russia until the USA purchased the territory for $7,000,000.
I despise the Russians. They are not proper Socialists. The Red revolution destroyed the White revolution and brought despots to power. That same mentality is still in power there.
There was a chance to do something properly with the break up of the Soviet Union but as the West supported that drunken oaf Yeltsin instead of Gorbachev, the chance slipped by. Yelstin stuffed it up so badly that it was inevitable that despots would once again take over and steal what the State had once owned.
As to Stalin. He was one of the most evil men on the planet of all time. I don’t know whether other Georgians are like him or not.
To add to the shame of the conduct of the USA and its allies, you could add supporting the 70’s coup in Chile to oust a democratically elected Government in the most bloodthirstiest of ways. Allowing Pinochet to come to power started a civilian bloodbath, the aftermath of which has still not been resolved completely.
Then there was Manuel Noriega. He was a good guy until he started facilitating drug dealing on Panamanian soil for the cartels to get their poisons into the USA.
NeedI go on?
I am a friend of the USA. Sometimes friends need to speak up if only to point out that an error is being made in policy or actions.
I will make no comment about the USA domestic politics. I will of course feel free to comment on USA actions overseas if I consider it appropriate such as in this case re Palin.
…and then only if I firmly believe, and can offer credible proof of my beliefs, that lies are being told.
Tony, we don’t quite disagree. I made the last, off topic comment to purposely illuminate how the general public could possibly keep believing the hogswallow, and sheep dip that’s dished out by BOTH parties AND our popular press. Can and has “public opinion” been cynically manipulated to sell the American people a bill of goods for snake oil? Definitely. From “Remember the Maine”? to IMO Shrub’s “WMDs” in Iraq at least. Will we ever learn? Some will and a few have. Most are too much absorbed in their OWN problems, and/or need a bogeyman to blame them upon. Shallow? probably. Self-righteous? most definitely.
Governor Palin is hardly in “the circle” yet. Was she deliberately lying? I doubt it. Was she speaking based upon limited or flawed information? quite possibly. Was what she said taken out of context and spun to make her look as bad as possible?.. no further comment. Look to the other threads and newspieces and form your own opinion. IMO Governor Palin is a rather large monkey wrench thrown into the works of getting Senator Obama annointed with the least possible fuss, otherwise they’d have ignored her like they had been Senator McCain’s entire candidacy. (Obama goes to the bathroom and 30 reporters cover it – McCain goes to New Hampshire and there’s ONE news guy at the airport…bias?)
Mik.
I am not sure you want a comment from me or not. So, I shall treat those comments as USA domestic political hypotheses, and leave them for others to answer.
I am only concerned with Palins’ comment regarding one particular foreign policy of her party. That of her erroneously accusing Russia of initiating the fighting in Georgia . I saw the news footage of her. I doubt it was doctored. In which case it is entirely in context.
Now if you could show me where Obama had said the same thing I would make the same comments about him too.
Mik said:What a wonderful opinion you have of most Americans. Did you reap this knowledge hanging out at the Country Club? Bush is responsible for the high price of gas. Has nothing to do with the fact he is an oil man. It has to do with the fact he has borrowed billions and run both the dollar and the economy into the ground. Ralph
I only bring it up in the sense that it is germaine as far as trying to understand how much of the American people think... or perhaps more precisely REACT emotionally without much thinking
Ralph Berg said:Ralph,Mik said:What a wonderful opinion you have of most Americans. Did you reap this knowledge hanging out at the Country Club? Bush is responsible for the high price of gas. Has nothing to do with the fact he is an oil man. It has to do with the fact he has borrowed billions and run both the dollar and the economy into the ground. Ralph
I only bring it up in the sense that it is germaine as far as trying to understand how much of the American people think... or perhaps more precisely REACT emotionally without much thinking
And here all along, everyone has been telling me it is either the greedy oil companies, or OPEC, or the speculators. You mean it is just one guy? Cheney is not involved this time?
Get a rope. 
Steve Featherkile said:Ralph Berg said:Ralph,Mik said:What a wonderful opinion you have of most Americans. Did you reap this knowledge hanging out at the Country Club? Bush is responsible for the high price of gas. Has nothing to do with the fact he is an oil man. It has to do with the fact he has borrowed billions and run both the dollar and the economy into the ground. Ralph
I only bring it up in the sense that it is germaine as far as trying to understand how much of the American people think... or perhaps more precisely REACT emotionally without much thinkingAnd here all along, everyone has been telling me it is either the greedy oil companies, or OPEC, or the speculators. You mean it is just one guy? Cheney is not involved this time?
Get a rope.
Steve Featherkile said:Ralph Berg said:Ralph,Mik said:What a wonderful opinion you have of most Americans. Did you reap this knowledge hanging out at the Country Club? Bush is responsible for the high price of gas. Has nothing to do with the fact he is an oil man. It has to do with the fact he has borrowed billions and run both the dollar and the economy into the ground. Ralph
I only bring it up in the sense that it is germaine as far as trying to understand how much of the American people think... or perhaps more precisely REACT emotionally without much thinkingAnd here all along, everyone has been telling me it is either the greedy oil companies, or OPEC, or the speculators. You mean it is just one guy? Cheney is not involved this time?
Get a rope.