Large Scale Central

From Biden's lips to G-d's ear!

I’m well aware of it, Tony. I’m also well aware of Russia’s desire to get a hold of that oil line and possibly disrupt it’s continuing flow to Europe as an intimidation factor. .

I’m also well aware of Russia’s involvement in stirring up all the trouble in Ossetia in the first place that provoked Georgia’s entering Ossetia. And it’s intimidation of a few other countries that want to join NATO.

and We all know how sneaky Georgia can be when the international community has it’s focus somewhere else.

The oil line through Georgia was built to counter the three pipelines in Russia. Russia has already threatened EU with cutting off their oil through those three pipelines. Of course they want to get to that 4th pipeline in Georgia, as as a byproduct, bring Georgia back into the “fold.”

Ummmm, let’s get the facts straight, Russia invaded Georgia during the opening ceremonies of the Peking Games. Sorry, have to be politically correct or Tony will call me insensitive or illiterate or some other slanderous comment…:stuck_out_tongue: Beijing Games. They did it while ras Putin was making nice with W.

edited to correct some stupid finger misteaks.

The United Nations, European Union, Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE), Council of the European Union, North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) and most other countries in the world recognize South Ossetia as part of Georgia.

On 8 August 2008, on the same day as the 2008 Olympic Games officially commenced, Georgian armed forces moved forward to South Ossetia to take control of Tskhinvali and “restore constitutional order in the entire region” Within hours, Russian troops also moved into South Ossetia as part of a “peace enforcement” operation, pushing the Georgian army out of South Ossetia and moving farther, occupying Gori, Kareli, Kaspi and Igoeti in Georgia proper. Parallel to these events Russian forces also entered Western Georgia from another breakaway region of Abkhazia occupying Zugdidi, Senaki and the major Georgian port of Poti. Following the end of hostilities, the Federation Council of Russia called an extraordinary session for 25 August 2008 to discuss recognition of Abkhazia and South Ossetia. On 25 August the Federation Council unanimously voted to ask the Russian President to recognise independence of South Ossetia and Abkhazia.The Russian parliament voted in favour of this motion the following day. This unilateral recognition by Russia was met by condemnation from Western countries and other members of United Nations (France, Germany, Great Britain, United States, etc), NATO, OSCE, European Council due to the violation of Georgia’s territorial integrity, United Nations numerous resolutions and the international law.

On 29 August, Georgia severed diplomatic relations with Russia over the conflict.

Well, at least we got that straightened out! :slight_smile:

“The more things change, the more they stay the same.” Dwight D. Eisenhower.

Tony is correct.
However, as Ken pointed out, Russia did not stop at South Ossetia and crossed well into Georgia.
There are two wrongs here.
Ralph

No, Tony is not correct. Georgia’s moving into Ossetia would not be considered an invasion since Ossetia was recognized as a part of Georgia. That’s like saying Ike’s moving the NG to Little Rock as an invasion of Arkansas.

I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma: but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest.

Sir Winston Churchill, Radio speech, 1939

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/91/Georgia_high_detail_map.png/800px-Georgia_high_detail_map.png)

Ken Brunt said:
No, Tony is not correct. Georgia's moving into Ossetia would not be considered an invasion since Ossetia was recognized as a part of Georgia. That's like saying Ike's moving the NG to Little Rock as an invasion of Arkansas.
Ken, Not everyone recognizes South Ossetia's sovereignty, but they declared independence in 1991 and has been recognized by some of the other former Russian republics as well as the Russian Federation. So the situation is muddled at best. Georgia's moving into South Ossetia certainly would be considered an invasion if you were a resident of South Ossetia or one of the nations that recognize their sovereignty. Ralph

The only 2 country’s that recognized it were Russia and Nicuragua.

Russian military analyst and Novaya Gazeta observer Pavel Felgenhauer on August 14, 2008, believed that “Russia’s invasion of Georgia had been planned in advance, with the final political decision to complete the preparations and start war in August apparently having been made back in April.” The Financial Times later concluded, upon analysing weeks worth of information, that: "So swift was the Russian reaction that some analysts believe that, while it did not appear to precede the Georgian assault on Tskhinvali, as Mr Saakashvili claims, it may have been planned in advance, with Mr Saakashvili simply falling into a well prepared Russian trap.

Ken Brunt said:
The only 2 country's that recognized it were Russia and Nicuragua.

Russian military analyst and Novaya Gazeta observer Pavel Felgenhauer on August 14, 2008, believed that “Russia’s invasion of Georgia had been planned in advance, with the final political decision to complete the preparations and start war in August apparently having been made back in April.” The Financial Times later concluded, upon analysing weeks worth of information, that: "So swift was the Russian reaction that some analysts believe that, while it did not appear to precede the Georgian assault on Tskhinvali, as Mr Saakashvili claims, it may have been planned in advance, with Mr Saakashvili simply falling into a well prepared Russian trap.


I’m sure Russia had the intel and was just sitting and waiting.
South Ossetia has been operating as a sovereign nation for some time, without world recognition.
“Legal” issues aside, Mr. Saakashvili stepped in some sh*t.
The Russians clearly went too far, even if one was to accept South Ossetia as a sovereign nation.
Mr Saakashvili did not act very wisely, even if you recognize South Ossetia as a part of Georgia. Forcing people to join or remain with your nation is a futile act.
Ralph

One now wonders why Georgia acted as it did when it did?

Were they put up to it?
Were they promised support that has never eventuated.

The fact remains that South Ossetia was an autonomous region of the USSR before the USSR fell apart and the people of South Ossetia have twice decided by democratic vote to be independent.
They didn’t want to be part of Georgia.
It is hardly their fault that few others recognise that fact.
The fact also remains that Georgia attacked South Ossetia before Russia responded.

Them’s the facts. Regardless of what anyone else would like them to be.

The Georgians in Ossetia didn’t participate in that vote so it can hardly be considered "democratic and it was never recognized by anyone as being legitimate.

The United Nations, European Union, Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE), Council of the European Union, North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) and most other countries in the world recognize South Ossetia as part of Georgia. However, the de facto republic governed by the secessionist government held a second independence referendum on 12 November 2006, after its first referendum in 1992 was not recognized by the international community as valid. According to the Tskhinvali election authorities, the referendum turned out a majority for independence from Georgia where 99% of South Ossetian voters supported independence and the turnout for the vote was 95%. The referendum was monitored by a team of 34 international observers from Germany, Austria, Poland, Sweden and other countries at 78 polling stations. However, it was not recognized internationally by the UN, European Union, OSCE, NATO and the Russian Federation, given the lack of ethnic Georgian participation and the legality of such referendum without recognition from the central government in Tbilisi. The European Union, OSCE and NATO condemned the referendum.

The de facto independent republics of Abkhazia, Transnistria, and South Ossetia recognized each other’s independence on 17 November 2006. The first member of the United Nations to recognize South Ossetia was the Russian Federation on 26 August 2008, followed by Nicaragua on 3 September. However, the European Union, OSCE, NATO, and most other countries recognize South Ossetia as an integral part of the territory of the state of Georgia.

Given that it’s “an integral part of Georgia” how does one attack one’s own country?

99% voted in favor of autonomy in an election monitored by other nations and the West refuses to recognize the results?
Probably the US and it’s allies believe they will rejoin Russia if they recognize their independence.
I sure wish we could get a 95% voter turnout here and get 99% of Americans to agree on anything.
Ralph

Ralph Berg said:
99% voted in favor of autonomy in an election monitored by other nations and the West refuses to recognize the results? Probably the US and it's allies believe they will rejoin Russia if they recognize their independence. I sure wish we could get a 95% voter turnout here and get 99% of Americans to agree on anything. Ralph
As for the Georgians not participating in the vote, I don't think we let "aliens" vote either, do we?

Nice to see people doing actual research trying to dig up information to refute the truth.

Sorry to say it ain’t so.

Now, if that Palin woman had said Russia was over the top with a heavy handed in response to Georgian agression, I would agree entirely.
However, she didn’t say that. Rather, she perpetuated the myth that Russia started the conflict on August 7/8th.
One wonders why the spin is being put on the facts.
Could it be that the American people, and the rest of the World for that matter, are being prepared for another pre-emptive strike against a sovereign state? A pre-emptive strike again based on lies?
Heaven forbid.

This is not a Left v Right, Liberal v Conservative thing.
It is a telling the truth v not telling the truth thing, and applies to any political persuasion.
If y’all want to clean up the political system, stop believing the BS that is put forth as the truth and start asking questions for yourselves.

Tony nails it

Russia never recognized the referendum either. Then a few weeks after the war it finally recognizes it?
Ossetia is an “autonomous region” inside the borders of Georgia.
Russia clearly crossed a internationally recognized border. Georgia did not.
As for "ethnic Georgians " not voting , if they live in that region, it is they’re country, why would they be considered “aliens”?
You be the judge…:wink:

Ken Brunt said:
Russia never recognized the referendum either. Then a few weeks after the war it finally recognizes it? Ossetia is an "autonomous region" inside the borders of Georgia. Russia clearly crossed a internationally recognized border. Georgia did not. As for "ethnic Georgians " not voting , if they live in that region, it is they're country, why would they be considered "aliens"? You be the judge...........;)
Ken, I am willing to concede your point that South Ossetia is not recognized by the majority of nations. An "autonomous region" is just that. The key word being "autonomous". Should a law enforcement agency from another community come into your community uninvited and take control, would you not consider it an invasion? Like I said, legal issues aside, Georgia acted very unwisely, most likely in an effort to draw the rest of us into their mess. They certainly were not surprised Russia intervened. They were surprised Russia was in a position to intervene so quickly. Step in sh*t and you should expect to stink. Ralph

I’d have to agree it’s a very muddy mess as are most “ethnic situations” in that area.
As far as Georgia’s move, I agree it was probably not a wise move considering Russia proximity and swiftness in moving, however I do agree with the rest of the International community’s condemnation of Russia’s getting involved in the whole mess to begin with.