Large Scale Central

For Mike O'Malley and others: Questions about Sound and Reverbe

Mike,

Last year, you ran a series about putting a sound port in one of your sparky steamers, to help out the bass. I have two Mikes and a Mallet, all with Vanderbilt tenders. For the moment, I plan to leave the speaker in the tender. Would cutting a hole for the sound port into the bottom of the tender, and inserting the brass pipe work, or would I just be unnecessarily mucking up a tender? I really don’t understand how the sound port helps the bass, but I can’t argue with success.

One of my complaints about using sound in these sparky locomotives is the reverberation that occurs inside the tender. Most folks don’t seem to notice it, but it is very disturbing to my ear. Would packing some sound absorbing material like cotton wadding around the back of the speaker alleviate that problem, or would I need to build a speaker box inside the tender?

Steve check out this site, I have now purchased two of his speaker systems in my two Mallets and like them very well, and they go in the boiler not the tender so the sound comes from where it is supposed to. Hear them run on my site or on you tube. The Link is https://home.comcast.net/~leonardk12/rrbog/1%20to%201%20Scale%20Sound.html. Be sure to tell Mr. kearns I sent ya. The Regal

The sound port turns the system into a “tuned port” or “bass reflex” enclosure. It basically takes the sound from the back side of the speaker and brings it out to the outside in phase with the front side, thus “reinforcing” the sound. This is usually tuned to enhance the bass frequencies (for multiple reasons).

Since you are dealing with bass, packing the inside to eliminate “reverberation”, which I would characterize as “echos” from the higher frequencies bouncing around inside, would work in my experience.

Regards, Greg

For my latest project, I’m thinking of putting the speaker in the boiler. Is there anything special I need to consider? Up until now, I’ve been building enclosures for the speaker in the tender.

Steve Featherkile said:
[...] Would cutting a hole for the sound port into the bottom of the tender, and inserting the brass pipe work, or would I just be unnecessarily mucking up a tender? I really don't understand how the sound port helps the bass, but I can't argue with success.

One of my complaints about using sound in these sparky locomotives is the reverberation that occurs inside the tender. Most folks don’t seem to notice it, but it is very disturbing to my ear. Would packing some sound absorbing material like cotton wadding around the back of the speaker alleviate that problem, or would I need to build a speaker box inside the tender?


Steve, the system you are talking about is referred to as ‘bass reflex’. These are not easy to design, especially for very small enclosures. In this system you try to invert phase of the sound wave by introducing appropriate delay. This delay is achieved by moving a large volume of air in the port tube or labyrinth, or sometimes a passive speaker with heavy membrane is used to simulate long port tube. The point if inverting phase is that the sound wave from inside the enclosure is out of phase with that what you hear outside the speaker box. If you just summed them up they would cancel each other. But you want them to attenuate so you need to invert the phase of the sound from inside the speaker box. If you can achieve this you will have twice as much ‘sound’. But obviously this can only be done in a very narrow range of frequencies and this is what you want to do for these frequencies which are relatively weak - these are the lowest frequencies which require a lot of energy to produce and large speakers. So if you manage to design an inverting port or membrane for these frequencies, your basses will be less weak'. But if you do this incorrectly, the port will just make a hole’ in your sound spectrum sucking up a range of frequencies. There are a lot of places where you can learn how to calculate the required length of the port. Here is one such place: http://www.mh-audio.nl/spk_calc.asp#ported http://www.madisound.com/services/hifispeakerdesign.php Heavy passive membrane is much more plausible in the sizes which we have available in large scale locomotives. Also, you may need to design a filter to restrict the lower range of frequencies produced by the main speaker to coincide precisely with the frequency range of the passive membrane or port. This is all a bit tricky, and this is why in small scales a STRONG closed enclosure is the best system. But strong must be quite strong and this is not easily achieved in model trains. It may even be better to mount the speaker in its own super strong box and just mount this box in the tender on cushions or pads or use other soft mounting approach. Using absorbing material is always advisable inside speaker enclosures, it helps to dampen sound waves and artificially `enlarges’ the enclosure. Fill the enclosure box as much and as dense as possible! You can use wool like material for the entire empty space and sound dampening paste or another sticky stuff for all walls. Good luck and best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi

A small correction Zubi, you used the word “attenuate” which means to reduce, you want the 2 waves to be in phase, so there is an increase in volume within the working frequency range, so “attenuate” is the reverse of what you want to say.

Another small correction, overstuffing the box reduces the volume of the box, and you normally want the box to be as large as possible.

Regards, Greg

Greg Elmassian said:
A small correction Zubi, you used the word "attenuate" which means to reduce, you want the 2 waves to be in phase, so there is an increase in volume within the working frequency range, so "attenuate" is the reverse of what you want to say.

Another small correction, overstuffing the box reduces the volume of the box, and you normally want the box to be as large as possible.

Regards, Greg


Greg, Thank you, it was too early in the morning when I wrote it… Of course I meant ‘amplify’ (i.e. ‘enhance’ or ‘increase’) instead. Regarding (over)stuffing the box with damping material - it always helps. The actual volume is slightly reduced, but by increasing acoustic impedance, (over)stuffing ‘simulates’ a much larger enclosure by dissipating the sound energy. Stuff it as much as possible, optimally with fine but inhomogenous damping material, to prevent formation of standing waves (for this purpose avoiding parallel, flat walls when building the enclosure is a good idea too. But of course on has to be careful to keep the damping material away from the membrane. Best, Zubi

How about using a small styrofoam coffee cup over the back of the (round) speaker. The side of the cup is angled and round, certainly defeating any standing wave.

Short answer is maybe, cut a hole, and if it doesnt work, plug it up.

I’m not an expert in speaker design, I just have a lot of experience as a bass player. There’s the physics of sound, and then there’s the way we hear, or “psychoacoustics,” and they aren’t always on the same team. I’m an not expert! This is what I think I understand.

When we hear any sound other than a machine generated pure sine wave, we are hearing a primary note and a huge range of “overtones.” It’s the overtones that make a violin and a piano and a guitar all sound different, even when they are playing the same note. The overtones are harmonic variations of the basic pitch. The low “E” string on a bass guitar sounds a fundamental note at 41 hz. But we also hear a LOT of higher frequencies in that note. The particular mix of overtones–the “overtone series”–is what makes different bass guitars sound different, or different violins sound different.

This is where psychoacoustics comes in. Our ears can use the overtone series to “fill in” for frequencies that aren’t there. A cell phone speaker does not reproduce much bass, but we hear a male voice as lower that actually is. Remember the old Barney Miller show theme? It had a famous bass part, started on an “F,” the second lowest note on a bass guitar, at 43 hz.:

http://www.televisiontunes.com/Barney_Miller.html

If you play that on your computer speakers–I’m hearing it right now on a laptop with two 1 inch speakers–you hear it as “bass,” but there’s really almost zero 43 hz content in it. Whta’s actually there is almost entirely much higher frequencies, but we hear an overtone series that we understand as “bass.” Bass players quickly learn that they way to be clear an audble is not to boost bass frequencies, but to mess with midrange frequencies–frequencies an octave higher than the actual note you’re playing.

What’s missing in LS sound is the bass frequencies–bass frequencies are really crucial but they are hard to manage. They take a lot of power and larger sizes. They’ll always be out of reach. So it seems to me the goal is to bump up or emphasize the midrange frequencies–those are much easier to reproduce.

here’s a good link on different approaches to speaker design:

http://www.bcae1.com/spboxnew2.htm

A sealed enclosure–if you put a cap on the back of the speaker, you are making a really small sealed enclosure–typically has to be really big to produce a lot of bass, whcih is why most speakers are “ported.” But it might be the case that making a bigger sealed enclosure would bump the midrange a lot–I know Raymann at the MLS forum makes sealed enclosures by attaching a long PVC tube.

It’s possible to calculate the values for this stuff, if you know the specs on your speaker. Typically, these are really hard to find for small speakers. If you don’t ave the actual specs for your speaker, it’s just guesswork

Steve Featherkile said:
How about using a small styrofoam coffee cup over the back of the (round) speaker. The side of the cup is angled and round, certainly defeating any standing wave.
Steve, this is actually a very good idea. Although the styrofoam is not strong or stiff, it is porous so it will work as a damping enclosure. Even better, glue together two or more of such cups to make a thicker enclosure. Gluing layers together will create a sandwich which is particularly good for both strength and dissipation of acoustic energy. Good luck and best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi PS remember to use a styrofoam compatible glue like white glue!!

Thanks, Mike and Zubi.

Mike, I listened to the Barney Miller theme, and after reading your post, I actually heard the beginning of the note you spoke of an octave higher, for perhaps a tenth of a second, before it dropped down. Amazing.

Zubi, I will give the cup idea a try. Thanks for the idea of using a second cup. I’ll let you know how it works out.

I was planning to use silicone, but I suppose that will melt the styrofoam. Does anyone know for sure?

Due to space shortage, I took the opposite approach.

The speaker would only fit in the space I had upside down, that is, with the magnet facing out. Didn’t have any space inside.

So I mounted the speaker flat to a 2mm styrene sheet with a couple holes drilled in it. This just keeps pressure waves from the “back” of the speaker from getting soaked up by the “front.” It also gives me something to mount the speaker by.

I painted the goldish speaker frame black so it doesn’t attract attention. If you get down low, you can see the magnet underneath my Mallet’s smoke box.

Is it as loud as it can be? Beats me. Can it make you jump when I hit the whistle button? You bet!

Well, I tried the two styrofoam cup idea, and it worked well. It has a deeper bass, now, and is 'way louder. I had to turn down the volume. The space available inside the Vandy tender was just right for a press fit of the cups between the top of the tender and the speaker.

I then tried the idea of stuffing the cup with a (clean) handkerchief. Even better.

Am I satisfied with the bass? Not yet, but the day is still young, as they say. Film at 11.

Steve Featherkile said:
Well, I tried the two styrofoam cup idea, and it worked well. It has a deeper bass, now, and is 'way louder. I had to turn down the volume. The space available inside the Vandy tender was just right for a press fit of the cups between the top of the tender and the speaker.

I then tried the idea of stuffing the cup with a (clean) handkerchief. Even better.

Am I satisfied with the bass? Not yet, but the day is still young, as they say. Film at 11.


Steve, this sounds good, pun intended;-) I do not know if silicone is aggressive in contact with styrofoam, you would need to try, but if it worked that would probably be the strongest and best solution, also to fix the cones to the speaker or the mounting plate of the speaker. Better than handkerchief would be wool, both natural and artificial. Good luck and let us know how the day develops! Best, Zubi

Jerry Hansen said:
Steve check out this site, I have now purchased two of his speaker systems in my two Mallets and like them very well, and they go in the boiler not the tender so the sound comes from where it is supposed to. Hear them run on my site or on you tube. The Link is https://home.comcast.net/~leonardk12/rrbog/1%20to%201%20Scale%20Sound.html. Be sure to tell Mr. kearns I sent ya. The Regal
Jerry, the link to Mr Kearns' site is busted. Is there a new one?

https://home.comcast.net/~leonardk12/rrbog/1%20to%201%20Scale%20Sound.html

Greg

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