Large Scale Central

FLUMMOXED!

Prototypes
#1

OK guys - I have to admit this car has me flummoxed! Take a look at the picture below and tell me: have you got any idea at all why the end pads stay up? Seems to me the only thing supporting them is a tension cable on each side of the car. At the end of the car there are two vertical lines, either iron bars or cables, but either way they don’t offer support, and are most likely tie downs. I’m building this car for the build challenge, and I’d sure like to have something believable going on here. Thanks for any ideas!

#2

John, If you look close there is also a roofwalk and roof platforms as on a boxcar that they are attached to.

edited to add that the roof end platforms seem to be on all 4 corners as depicted by the side ladders

#3

I have to agree with Dave. Looks like a platform for the brakeman as there’s a brakewheel extending above the platform on the left.

#4

I’ve seen that Dave, and if I look really closely I even notice that at the top of the ladders, the platform is cut away in a curve, presumably to clear a trapdoor up there. Sure, I’ve told myself the answer is the roofwalk, but do I really believe the roofwalk would be enough to hang a heavy piece of timber like that end pad seems to be? Well, it may be the only answer, but it just doesn’t seem adequate to the task! That’s the problem I’m having…

#5

Yup, Ken, there’s a platform all right, sort of… Our posts crossed…

#6

There are also vertical bars sandwiching the tanks between the upper beams and the tank car floor.

#7

Looks like that ridge beam is pretty substantial, thicker than the stringers for the car, so between that, and the end tanks themselves being used for vertical support and the diagonal truss rods and rods on the end…I can see that working…

#8

So if I understand Bart correctly, he’s going with the weight of a heavy beam, used as a roofwalk, I guess, resting on the vat staves, running the length of the car, sort of counter balancing the pad. That may well be all there is to it, it sure looks that way, but I don’t like it very much.

So the pad now is suspended at the center from Bart’s beam, let’s say by a couple of bolts. Let’s assume the rods at the car ends are there to stop the pad from swaying. O.K. Those heavy-looking tension cables either side of the car tighten all those vats and pads toward the center of the car. They would also tend to tear down on that connection between the pad and the roofbeam, wouldn’t they?

The brakeman’s platforms, as I see them, cannot contribute any strength to the basic structure; they are very thin and light, and as I said, they are als substantially cut away, probably to clear a trapdoor up there.

I may have to settle for Bart’s idea that the “roofwalk” is a massive 40 foot length of timber. If it were my car I wouldn’t want that sitting on the vat staves, though; too much strain in th wrong direction, I should think…

But maybe Bart’s answer is the best we can come up with. I’ll knock up a mock up and see how I feel about it. Skeptical though, not at all sure I’m going to be happy with it. I can see myself cheating - doing to these end pads what the builders did to the intermediate ones - supporting them on, I think, a couple of cast iron pipes.

Thanks guys. Any other ideas???

#9

Google Railroad pickle or brine car.
Hit “Images”.
You’ll have all kinds of ideas.

#10
John Bouck said:
Google Railroad pickle or brine car. Hit "Images". You'll have all kinds of ideas.
jb, that's no fair. That's too easy!
#11

… It’s just gotta be a roofless one, tho’ !!! :wink:

#12

(http://freightsheds.largescalecentral.com/users/choochoo_chaboogie/_forumfiles/MiksvatcarRedOval.JPG)

John said:
So if I understand Bart correctly, he’s going with the weight of a heavy beam, used as a roofwalk, I guess, resting on the vat staves, running the length of the car, sort of counter balancing the pad. That may well be all there is to it, it sure looks that way, but I don’t like it very much.

John looking close at the picture I see a 2" or 3" thick roofwalk with a similar size end pad over hanging what you are calling a beam. I also see two metal corners where the diagonal rods are bolted to the supposed beam, and where the vertical rods would be secured on top of the supposed beam. The metal corners there to secure the rods only.

John said:
So the pad now is suspended at the center from Bart’s beam, let’s say by a couple of bolts. Let’s assume the rods at the car ends are there to stop the pad from swaying. O.K. Those heavy-looking tension cables either side of the car tighten all those vats and pads toward the center of the car. They would also tend to tear down on that connection between the pad and the roofbeam, wouldn’t they? The brakeman’s platforms, as I see them, cannot contribute any strength to the basic structure; they are very thin and light, and as I said, they are als substantially cut away, probably to clear a trapdoor up there.

Next I see the brakemans platform, but i don’t see it being formed to the curve of the tank. I see a straight edge from the inside edge of each ladder back to the supposed beam.Again 2" to 3" thick with a corresponding size plate of the same material under them the width of the car, with the roofwalk extended past the edge of this assembly Then, and I am assuming the size here again, I see a box type assembly built from the 2" or 3" stock at a full 8" width built as a surround at the end. it is open under there, you can even see a bit of the far side diagonal brace inside your supposed beam. There are also spacing blocks between the vats that appear to be just that, spacer blocks,that the side vertical rods go behind. The tension on any of these areas would be to help hold the vats in place when empty. When full, their weight would keep them in place and baffles would minimize the movement of any liquid in the tanks.

#13

Hmmm yer right Hollywood…that seems to be a valance of some sort (for lack of a better term) rather than a solid beam…

#14

I agree about the 2-3" material underlying the roofwalk and platform material. I think you must be right, Hollywood, about the platform’s shape.

(http://freightsheds.largescalecentral.com/users/choochoo_chaboogie/_forumfiles/Endplatform.jpg)

I misread the texture under there as being the building’s bricks visible through a cutout. Good - I prefer a rectangular platform. As for a box-type assembly, I say there’s no purpose to a box or valence. I believe that’s a solid piece of wood, let’s say equal to the pads or spacing blocks between the tanks. I believe we are seeing reflected light at the far end on the bottom surface of this member, and what appears to be the silhouette of a nut/bolt/washer combination just to the right of the vertical rod’s entry point, but not the cable inside a hollow valance.

(http://freightsheds.largescalecentral.com/users/choochoo_chaboogie/_forumfiles/Vaalenceorbeam.jpg)

This NBW is a relative lightweight and may be securing anything, including parts of our platform above, or just a piece of unknown hardware up there. The shadow on the tank is a different matter, and one might read that as a sign that my beam is hollow. The shadow seems to bulge. I can’t get a read on this at all:

(http://freightsheds.largescalecentral.com/users/choochoo_chaboogie/_forumfiles/tankshadow.jpg)

If it were a straight line I’d say, OK, more reflected light - this time indicating shadow, but as it is??? Yes it’s a detail, but I’m darned if I know what it’s telling us. Unless in addition to any shadow under there, we have a black rubber pad bulging out from between the tank and the beam, which would be shaped to fit around the contour of the tank, BTW. I can see where this gives the impression of a hollow valance. At this point I think I’m going to assume that the 3" thick boards below the roofwalk and platform are merely spacers rather than structural members. Intended to level the walkways, etc. which are sitting on several different surfaces up there. Then there’s the cable - the big one running down diagonally alongside the vats. It’s clearly a major item, and heavy as well. You can see its thickness, detect the sag in it, and understand its overall purpose, to hold the whole kit’n’kaboodle firmly in place, end to end, whether empty or laden. That puppy is going to be anchored to something strong. I’m still voting for a solid beam. Now, if you project the line of the cable through the beam, it looks as if it enters the beam through a hole bored horizontally through the beam, so the cable would flexes before entry. That’s what a projected line tells me. But where the cable exits at the end of the car, you can see that it angles upward again. I agree with anyone who says that is weird, and I can’t explain it. But in any case, I believe you’ll agree that the main body of the cable and this stub end are not in alignment; they do accord, however with my horizontal hole through a solid beam theory. I’m thinking the cable may be anchored in back of the beam to a large eyebolt and what we’re actually seeing on that steel plate is the end of the eyebolt with its nut, and the eyebolt’s excess length has been bent upwards. Can you buy that? :expressionless: I’m grateful for your explanation, Dave, of the lightweight cables or rods which are hold downs for the vats rather than for the pillow blocks - that explanation works very well for me, and I’ll be using that idea on the model. I’m guessing they’d run thru boards which cross the tops of the vats… Where is all this going anyway? I’ve got to get to work and end up with a model that satisfies me for believability, never mind the truth! Unless something new comes to light - and I’m pretty much in the dark here - I’m planning to conveniently ignore the bulging shadow - or call it rubber (?). I’m going to forget about valances and go with a beam, especially since I’ve had the beams ready as of a couple of days ago… :wink: and I’m not going to agonize over that cable’s weird ending either. There may be several explanations… Finally, I’ve knocked up a mockup of the Bart theory and frankly it falls apart, at least appearance wise From an operational standpoint, any vibration will send that beam exactly according to Isaac Newton. Even my bulging rubber pad isn’t going to stop it. I don’t even pretend to know what’s really going on here, but I’ve got a back story ready. As you see from the memo, this car appears to have been in drydock for repairs to the deck and a couple of staves. The end pad was supported on legs, just like the middle ones. The legs have been removed; the photo was taken before their new iron-pipe replacements had been positioned. Every vat car I’ve seen has its end pad on legs of one kind or another. Admittedly, this is the only one where the pad was pulled against the vat by a monster ships cable. My little story may have holes big enough to drive an Erie Triplex through it, but unless a better hits me over the head, I’ll stick with it. Here’s an artist’s impression:

(http://freightsheds.largescalecentral.com/users/choochoo_chaboogie/_forumfiles/endprops.JPG)

Thanks, guys, to all of you, for your thoughtful input.

#15

Well, I dunno… on second thought, now I look at the two pictures, I like the first one better after all. Maybe the rubber pad is real and DOES make all the difference! I’m not all that crazy about the poles, and I DO prefer the more primitive appearance of the original. Oh rats… still thinking…

#16

I’ve been working on the end details today and I’ve come around to Bart’s point of view that it’s going to work without the poles, just with the tension on the cables. In the case of my car, which has tapered vats, any slippage is only going to tighten things up. I hadn’t thought of that before, but it makes the whole thing work better for me. Cheers!

#17

John

Just a personal opinion, but I believe that that is a solid timber as evidenced by the checking that can be seen on the end nearest you in the photograph.

If you look directly below the upper one you’ll see a like sized timber on the deck of the flat car. Additionally, you can see similar timbers between tanks (both top and bottom), and a similar arrangement at the other end of the car.

The combination of the upper timbers and the truss rods running diagonally down close to the mid point of the car and anchored to the cars frame (note, in the first photograph you can see what seems to be a turnbuckle mid-way between the timber and the car’s frame). I believe the arrangement is there to counter the racking forces that would be encountered by the wooden tanks. From the train starting, stopping, and the normal gain and loss of slack caused by up-hill, down-hill transitions. because of the liquid contents.

The poles seen in the second photograph, may have been added to prevent the upper timber from falling down if the tension of the truss rod became to slack.

#18

What has had me stymied, Steve, is how come those end beams stay up there. I have found it hard to believe that attaching a three-inch plank to the top, then resting the assembly on the vat staves, then tightening up a truss rod or cable running down each side like that, is going to hold it up. Now, the vats on my model are tapered, so if the thing does slip down, it will only tighten up. What I’m doing to solve my problem is I’m building it as shown, - that means I’ve changed my mind since my earlier post - and I’m keeping the option of actually adding poles if I find it necessary later on. I would rather leave the poles out if I can and if my finished model looks believable without them.