What is the “Fletch” method for creating rivets? I saw this mentioned in one of the articles.
It’s not nice to see a post not answered , so I shall be erudite .
A “fletcher” is a maker of arrows , as in bows’n .
May I therefore suggest that “Fletching” is the art of denting sheet metal from the back , in a pattern to represent rivets , thus giving vent to two hobbies simultaneously–or even at the same time .
I shall attempt this method , and report back , ricochets permitting .
Mike
I thought it had to do with a certain Aussie known as “Fletch” and a quite capable mastercraft modeler. But darned if I know how he does his rivits. Might be that Tony would know, but I’ve not seen him in these parts recently…
The article which mentioned this technique was written by Bart Salmon. It was the one about kitbashing a four-truck Shay.
Dave “Fletch” Fletcher wrote up his technique for embossing rivets in tenders, etc., in his article on building a 2-6-0. Chapter 7 deals with tender construction, and embossing the rivets. http://www.mylargescale.com/articles/masterclass/mc1/mc1-07/mc1-07.asp Essentially, he uses a metal punch from behind. I’ve found Vance Bass’s technique to produce the best looking embossed rivets, though. His method has the advantage of producing a nice sharp shoulder to the rivet which really stands out. http://www.nmia.com/~vrbass/models/rivetpress/rivetpress.htm Here’s an example of rivets embossed via Vance’s technique:
Later, K
Wouldn’t it be easier to weld the darn thing? 
(It’s late and I should be asleep, but for some reason, that escapes me at the moment, so I shall inflict my late night wit on you.)
Erm , have I missed something here ?
I have been using this technique for many years , along with a lot of other UK modellers . Started it in about 1950 , I suppose , and it was already around then .
So how it got the name “Fletch” is a bit of a mystery .
The technique is used in aircraft construction , and has been since metal skinning came along . There , the technique is known as “Skin Dimpling” ,the process forms an accurate countersink in sheet metal , and is finished off with a hole the same size as a rivet shank , this thin sheet is not weakened by having metal removed in order to countersink for “flush rivetting” . The mating hole in the supporting stringers , spars or whatever , is produced the same way . The skin dimpling is sometimes produced by rotating tools .
I got myself a rivetting tool as described in the references in 1953 — having been shown the skin dimpler , I drew up the hammer and anvil and got several made for different sized “rivets” . My mentor for that had been using the things for many years , he being a scratch builder of model rail stuff
There is one error in the drawings , the female should be slightly larger than the male , otherwise unwanted dinting of the rivet can occur .
The technique of dimpling metal was used in construction of real locos where round headed rivets would have fouled another assembly .
Mind you , this involved getting the metal red hot and two blokes attacked the thing with hammer and anvil . "Drilled and worked to fit " was the term used . Normally used when the draughtsman got something a bit wrong , or when a modification was needed .
Mike
Bart is referring to the diced carrot method for larger rivets that I recommended for larger rivets in the Masterclasses, not the punched method (which is only good up to certain sizes). Moving from O scale to largescale in the mid '90s, I found I needed to come up with something else to bulk up the rivets when building smokeboxes, plus the stays and bolts around the firebox areas where pins and punching just looked lame…thats when I decided to simply slice up styrene rod into lil slithers and weld them onto the smokebox sides etc. Dono if someone was doing that before…probably, Bart was just referring to my classes when needing larger bulkier rivets for 7/8th scale where punching wouldn’t do it. As for punching and dies and all that crap, there are loads of ways to do the same thing, I think it comes down to technique and practice. I dont use dies etc simply because it makes no difference to me except to take 10 times as long. I use a cedar wood block and a small baking spike, no hammer…no hitting of any kind, I simply press them in. The wood is firm enough to keep a crisp edge to the rivets…the rest is all practice. Here’s a couple of examples of the ‘Fletch’ rivet rod stick on method next to some smaller punched rivets (these are tiny punched ones relative to the ones I do on tender sides etc…the large rivets are all welded on rod slices:
and this is the old punched rivet method for tenders etc:
another tender, punched rivet sides and sliced rivets used for the hold down cleats on the front end of the tender legs.
None of the aboved punched rivets above use any dies, they’re simply pressed into the styrene atop a block of cedar. A whole tender side you see above takes about 20min -1/2 hour. Hope this helps. David. Ps I check in regularly as Bob knows in his site records, but there isn’t much to really comment on that hasn’t been discussed already.
The “stuck on” rivets have , as you say , been around a long time . I remember heat stretching sprue to chop into little slivers to do just that , way before you culd buy plastic rod . Used on detailing model tanks and armoured cars . It must date back to the late 50’s .
There is another technique whereby holes are drilled and plastic stuck through then cut off leaving a bit sticking out to be shaped with MEK .
There is also the other , not frequently used technique of actually using bits of shaped mushroom headed metal , and banging them one with a punch , die , hammer , whatever to join two bits of metal . It is known as rivetting .
I favour the properly shaped die and punch method of deforming the metal , or plastic . It produces a rivet head without deforming the surrounding material .
Mike
Obviously, there are several methods that work!
David, what thickness of styrene is on your tenders? I must compliment you on their appearance!
Regards, Greg
Hey Greg,
For tenders I build the shells up in 2mm thick styrene sheet, with styrene pipes for the tender legs and rear rounded corners. Then I wrap a 0.5mm styrene cladding to the outside of the basic thick styrene shell…this 0.5mm wrapper is embossed with the rivets. See attached for an idea of the procedure:
http://4largescale.com/fletch/d3d.htm
Part way down you’ll see the tender construction and wrapper being applied.
Also here:
http://4largescale.com/fletch/d9c.htm
For pressing the rivets, I align a steel ruler along the line where I want to do the rivets. For the close-together rivets along the top and bottom of the tender sides, I space the rivets 2mm apart. I just count off and press the rivets in every 2mm along the ruler, counting out loud, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10…2, 4, 6, 8, 10…etc. The rivets get pressed in at about 1 rivet every second. If you do this to music you can control your speed! No ‘Heavy metal’ however!!
I believe the rivet dies can punch thicker styrene than 0.5mm (to about 1mm or so), but I’d still want my tender body to be at least 2mm thick in the walls…so I prefer the wrapper method. Also I’ve not seen anyone using the dies to place the rivets as close together as I’ve shown along the top and bottom edge, which IS how they were in the prototypes I’ve chosen to model. The rivets are easily crisp enough for my needs using the firm block of wood, good spacing and as I mention, the whole side of a tender can be done in under half an hour.
For a much more informed review of the above method, you can refer to the making of the tender for the Mason Bogie masterclass I did here:
http://www.mylargescale.com/articles/masterclass/mc2/mc2-05/mc2-05-19.asp
Just start there and flick through the pictures.
David.
To get rivets close together using the punch method , all you need to do is make a die with two or more rivet hole blanks at the correct spacing .
Using this will also automatically give you correct space between rivets . I made up a four hole one for a long run of rivets .
You may also use the same trick to make a rivetted manhole surround , by making a circle of rivet dies .
Mike
As an alternate to cutting off rod, I use craft punches to make rivet heads. See my article: http://www.largescalecentral.com/articles/view.php?id=43 I used this process on the > 1000 rivets on my 7/8 boxcab.
That’s one of the great things about a site like this , ideas keep coming up when people take an interest .
I like the 7/8 loco and its rivets , the punch idea is a good one .
Did you know that in military modelling , bolt head punches are available also ? Made by the same company as make the round ones , and typically , I cannot remember the name .
Any good mil model shop will tell you .
Nice one , Bob .
Mike
Neat box cab, Bob. Really like the rivit work on it. Lil bugger’s got character…
I’ve been using Fletchs method for a while now, I’m sold on it.
I Googled a bit and didnt see anyone selling those hex-head punches, but I DID see a lot of mention of them. Any pointers? Those would be VERY neat.
Bob ,
Is Squadron Supplies still going ? They must sell them .
Mike
Edit ----- I just checked , Squadron Mail Order does exist , but how the heck you find anything on their site is beyond me , key in tools and they come up with Tank Kits .
Historex in the UK sell them , but if you see the price on their website , you will probably need a quick brandy to recover . The dollar exchange right now is not good .
Micro Mark seem to do a heck of a lot , but I cannot find Hex Punches . www.micromark.com will get you to their site and phone number , they may know where to get some .
pps for those of you who are wondering wtf is he on about , try keying in this address; Armour Extra Detail Punch & Die Set .
Mike
The FineScale Modeler website’s Armor forum listed Historex as the only known source for hex punches. Hobbylinc lists plastruct hex rod in .020", .030", .040", .060", .080", .100" and 1/8" sizes and even mentions useage for bolt heads, looks like the cheap way to go !
Yes , Gary , quite right , and it does the job just the same as the punches . Cutting has to be accurate , not always easy when trying to cut thin slices , but not impossible . The hex rod also gives an increased range of sizes to add to the punch set . Punching the things is much quicker , and has the advantage that you can punch thin brass as well . Or copper , etc .
But , a good point , Gary , very usable .
Mike