Large Scale Central

Finis to an era

What a lot of backpedaling.

The spin-masters must just be furious when confronting the power of the internet. Doubly so when dealing with someone like TOC who carefully records every happening as well as providing solid, accurate reports and practical, usable solutions rather than more spin. Got to drive them crazy!

It’s amazing how everyone is suddenly singing from the “Never did suggest/request that, and never would”, refrain. The problem is that it still comes across as a serious attempt to quash any real reviews or reporting. Only this time, it plays out in public.

Meanwhile, it would appear that the prime promoter of the “Super Socket” is firmly in power at Bachmann. Any guesses as to the corporate title? Perhaps Vice President of Questionable Solutions That Never Happened? LOL!!

Happy RRing,

Jerry

A little while ago the SOMEBODY (who shall remain nameless) was asked what he/she had to say about the issue of counterweights being loose.

“Absolutley not” was the reply. “There is nothing wrong with them”.

That in front of numerous witnesses.

Then when confronted with irrefutable evidence that they were loose and it was an issue, shot back: " I have known about that all along".

Don’t believe me. Just ask Andre. He was a witness.

That SOMEBODY is a congenital liar.
Don’t ever be surpised at anything he/she comes out with.
Don’t be surprised at the lengths he/she will go to, to try and shoot the messenger simply because the messenger does not agree with them.

I just love it when the truth starts coming out. In public no less.
Talk about foot, shooting oneself in.

There are corporate agendas at work here.

Still.

Okay, have some useful data:
MR Review on the Ames Super Socket With Integrated Production Electronics:
Versatile electronics. I removed the tender’s press-fit coal doors and coal load to access the main printed-circuit (PC) board. Removing a smaller secondary PC board reveals a 12-pin and an 11-pin socket. These sockets are for plug-in DCC decoders or RC receivers. You can also connect a control system using the soldering pads and screw terminals on the main PC board. The function of each socket and terminal is outlined in the printed instruction manual.

Three slide switches are on top of the main PC board. These include an on/off motor switch, track polarity switch, and a pickup switch. This last switch allows the user to choose between track and battery power.

The K-27 is designed for easy installation of an aftermarket sound system. The tender has plenty of space for a speaker under the PC board, and the locomotive includes optical sensors in the cylinders for sound systems that support synchronized chuffs."

GR Review of same:

“In the tender, visible for the most part through the rectangular opening once the coal load is removed, is the new electronics board.
This is designed for some things to plug into, and solder pads are provided along one side for those who do not want to use the sockets.
I think this constitutes the sixth or seventh interface board design for Bachmann Large Scale.
This one provides three switches for motor on/off, track polarity, and track/other. Consumers should be aware that the only screw terminals provided in this model are marked “BATT”, and really are only so for controllers plugged into the two parallel control system sockets provided in the electronics board in the tender.
For other applications, they are “Throttle Output”. If you use any system for control that does not plug into the sockets, connect charged batteries to these terminals and actuate the slide switches, you will have a full-speed launch.
When feeding through the “BATT” terminals, the polarity switch and motor on/off work normally.
This can be an issue if your choice of control systems is not protected from reverse battery power. The “BATT” terminals are marked “+” and “-“, but the inputs to the socket assembly actually changes polarity with the moving of the track polarity switch.”

Did anyone notice they don’t appear to have actually plugged anything INTO that socket, not made the chuff to function?

What’s the difference?
One uses company promotional material.
One doesn’t.
You guess which one.

Final clarification (I hope):

“(Doug) only felt that you were not the best person to review the K-27 based on your posted views regarding Bachmann’s new socket.”

Curmudgeon said:
Final clarification (I hope):

“(Doug) only felt that you were not the best person to review the K-27 based on your posted views regarding Bachmann’s new socket.”


LOL! So the “best person” to review would be someone who loves the new socket. Well, duh! Naturally the manufacturer wants a reviewer to love every aspect of a new product. But a review is supposed to be an honest, fair examination of the product to see whether, and how well, a product lives up to its marketing.

The statements quoted from the MR “review” are little more than a listing of features, without any apparent effort to determine how well those features are implemented. As such, it doesn’t tell the reader anything more than they could find out from the manufacturer’s ads.

Plug and play…but what to plug? It’s probably hard to have a non biased view of a socket that doesn’t have anything to plug into it. So, how should a review of this read? How about something like this: On the plus side, the Ames Super Socket does occupy some empty space in the tender, which is sure to please purists who complain that real tenders were not empty shells. There are a total of 23 pins into which you can put anything you’d like - providing ultimate flexibility unlike anything I’ve dealt with in the past. A provided diagram clearly shows the available functions of each pin:

(http://www.jbrr.com/Pics/_forumfiles/Diagram.jpg)

By removing the easy to disassemble board, the user can quickly install an after market sound system. This also has the side benefit of providing enough room for the batteries of your choice. Optical sensors can be replaced with magnetic ones to provide the ultimate in realistic synchronized chuffs.

Bob McCown said:
Ric Golding said:
You know, I guess this does raise the question as to how can we trust any review from Kalmbach?
When I stopped seeing "Incorrect scale/gauge" in Accucraft, USA Trains, and LGB reviews, I knew they had gone from reviews to advertising.
I always start reading the review by looking at who is writing it. That is the "decision maker" for me as to whether I even bother to read the review.

Well I finally got on LSC.

Since Steve Stockham introduced my name in an earlier post, I thought the least I could do is let everyone know that I am here and have been a lurker for the past few days (since Dave told me where to look).

I have some things to add and some additional topics which only have been passed over rather lightly. But I am waiting for a couple of events to occur before I decide how much to mention.

My viewpoint is similar to Dave’s (TOC), but I have a different approach to the issue, Dave’s aware of where I am coming from because we have discussed it.

Soon.

Barry BBT

Tongue in cheek: Dave could have mentioned the ART5490 - 27mhz onboard TE or the ART5491 - 75mhz onboard TE as possible fits for the “supersocket” until other systems are developed. I bet Bachmann would have really loved having the Aristo products suggested for running their engines! I long ago gave my Bachman engines to the grandkids and have no plans of buying any more in the near future.
JimC.

Welcome to LSC, Barry…your opinions and viewpoints will be much appreciated as are TOC’s…:wink:

Ray Dunakin said:
I agree, there's nothing negative there, unless one considers warning battery users that the polarity switch could short their systems to be a "negative". That's actually the kind of helpful, honest information one expects from a review.

Perhaps Bachmann thinks their SuperSocket is the greatest invention in the history of large scale, and simply neglecting to tout it as such constitutes a “negative review”?


Well, I am MOST disappointed in the ‘Super-Socket’.

I tried it with my

  1. iPod

  2. Wi-Fi phone

  3. Blue-ray media recorder

  4. Sony Aibo

and finally,

  1. my hearing aid.

None of these items showed the slightest sign of working.

In fact, despite using a LOT of force, none of them actually fitted too good either.

I think that Bachmann are being economical with the truth, here.

tac the griper

Ken Brunt said:
Welcome to LSC, Barry............your opinions and viewpoints will be much appreciated as are TOC's......;)
I'll echo what Ken said. Glad to have you on board.

OK, so Marc has the ball – if given to him by Kalmbach – for Dave to either be asked or not asked to write a review for Garden Railways.

I welcome his continuing to write for this site as well as the other.

Meanwhile, Dave’s credibility has been advanced and the need for trusted reviews brought to focus via Large Scale Central carrying these three pages of postings.

Obviously, someone is reading!

Thanks to Dave and others who report clearly, objectively, and honestly product analysis, we are all valuable to the hobby for the right reasons.

As to certain Bachman execs: Mark Twain said it so clearly: “There are those who remember things which never happened.”

I could have bought a K-27 at the ECLSTS last weekend, but discussion in the 10 hour drive from northern Vermont to York about getting the 2nd run, and seeing how many birthing pains the first run has had led me to defer purchase for a while.
Also, I might have had to have it on my lap, obscuring the view, on the way back.
I WILL get at least one, if not 2.

I thought TOC’s Garden Railways review was fine. I ALWAYS read everything he posts(even if it is about rusty subs)

Barry Olsen said:
Well I finally got on LSC.

Since Steve Stockham introduced my name in an earlier post, I thought the least I could do is let everyone know that I am here and have been a lurker for the past few days (since Dave told me where to look).

I have some things to add and some additional topics which only have been passed over rather lightly. But I am waiting for a couple of events to occur before I decide how much to mention.

My viewpoint is similar to Dave’s (TOC), but I have a different approach to the issue, Dave’s aware of where I am coming from because we have discussed it.

Soon.

Barry BBT


Hi Barry, good to se you online again

Bob, Ken, and Vic,

Thank you for the welcome, now I truly feel welcome (and comfortable).

To begin my first comments. I have come to know, respect and befriend Dave Goodson. He became a Dealer for Barry’s Big Trains in 1996. At that time Russ Reinberg was giving me feedback on my products.
Dave volunteered some comments which seemed more complete in the evaluation. Russ was moving on to other venues and spending more time on his mag, so I switched the evaluation process to Dave, after asking if he would evaluate my new products and innovations. Dave agreed.

I will say in my position, I am looking for the negatives to address and solve, but I was hoping for a few more positive comments, you know a couple of “atta boys”. Very hard to come by. But the process works. Dave’s comments always include the “how-to”, which I can accept or avoid, but the important thing for me is that the comments are direct, honest and to the point, no wastes of time or having to guess what Dave is trying to say.

At one point, Dave remarked that the drive would surge while pulling a heavy train on a downhill (Dave has a 4% slope). At that time my wife’s daughter lived in the Seattle area and she was wanting to visit, which we did. I then was able to meet Dave, see his layout over a couple of days. Dave demoed the surging problem,
which sent my mind racing, since this was obviously a real problem.

Back home I tried flywheels (couldn’t fit a flywheel big enough to cause any effect). Investigated drives from
other manufacturers. I don’t remember what triggered the solution exactly, but I tried a double thread worm and found an improvement. Sent a drive to Dave to test out. He agreed we were on the right track, but needed more work.

One of the features of a worm (on the motor) and the wormgear (the driven gear) is the gear ratio. On a single thread worm (direct drive), the gear ratio is the nmber of teeth on the driven gear. On a double thread worm and worm gear the ratio is half of the number of teeth on the wormgear. What this means usually is the gear ratio will be too high (for trains). The trick then is to lower the output gear ratio (and multiply the torque). This is down by putting the double thread wormgear on the same shaft with a spur gear which then drives the axle spur gear.

Dave also discovered that the countershaft (the one with the wormgear and the small spur gear) was ripping the bronze bushings apart. So I replaced the bushings with ball-bearings, no more bearing failures.

There is more to this story, but the point is that without Dave, I may not have the solution to the problem even today. But Dave and I can converse and agree on the definition of the problem and possible solutions.
Dave did this for Bachmann on the first edtitions of the Shay and it was misunderstood as being a criticism. This impression continued for a long time. One day I received a call from Dick Maddox, explaining to me that he/Bachmann were getting ready to sue Dave Goodson, basically for denegrating their products. Dick and I talked about this scenario for awhile where I explained that Dave was trying to help. Dick asked if I thought he could talk to Dave. I said of course and they did. Later on comment came back again and again, Dick said I seem to have bneen listening to the wrong people (his people). The point here is that Dick moved on and the “people” are still there, continuing the defamation.

More later.

Barry

Hey Barry! My Bachmann/BBT 2-8-0 Bumblebee Annie (complete with RCS and Sierra sound) is still going strong! It’s definitely made the Annie a 1st class locomotive!(Shameless plug*)

Better be careful what you say about the behind-the-scenes of Bachmann! If how they are treating Dave is any indication you might also end up “persona non grata!” By the way, I understand that your 2-8-0 drivetrain replacement for the Bachmann Connie is exceptionally smooth, quiet and powerful! You might be called upon to modify it for the K-27 if Bachmann can’t (or won’t) acknowledge the problem! (I wonder if that would be construed as criticism and subject to legal action? Hmmm…)

Another manufacturer’s forum had the reputation of being unwilling to accept criticism of the manufacturer’s product. Fortunately, this manufacturer (and the bulk of its members) has/have moved on from there and are seeing that reporting a problem is positive and leads to product improvement/changes to make an excellent product even better. It would seem that another manufacturer has taken a backward step and is taking advice from someone with a vested, commercial interest in the product. It seems that any criticism is met with excommunication. The manufacturer only wants ‘yes’ men to tell them how good they are and how wonderful their product is.

The early failures of the first release Shay should have been the death knell for any further releases. However, it was the aftermarket that showed the manufacturer that improvement was possible and the loco was ‘saved’ from banishment to the mantlepiece. The assembly line problems with the connie showed that while plastics development had improved, there were still problems on the production process line. Once these were addressed, an excellent locomotive became an exceptional loco. Reporting a problem should be viewed in the context in which it is reported. By reporting a problem, the person involved is singling himself out for possible criticism from the many manufacturer biassed cronies who refuse to accept that occasionally problems do occur. By reporting these problems the manufacturer is made aware that a problem exists and the end result will show the resolve of the manufacturer to ‘get it right’.

Of course the manufacturer would rather that the problem was ignored, or, if reported, that it be done by way of personal email. The internet makes modellors aware that they are not the only one experiencing a particular problem. The severity of the problem is then reflected by the number of people reporting it. One case in point was a wheel retention problem on a heavy locomotive. Since no one had paid to have the loco mailed back to the manufacturer for repair, then, when the problem was reported on the manufacturer forum, the manufacturer insisted several times that no problem existed. However, when directed to view photographs of several damaged locomotives on their own website, the manufacturer requested that in future any one experiencing a wheel retention problem, return the loco to the manufacturer for repair with shipping paid for by the manufacturer. By reporting the problem, the manufacturer was able to come up with a ‘fix’ to ensure that its excellent product remained reliable. There was no attempt to undermine the manufacturer’s credibility.

It would seem that some manufacturer executives take exception to criticism of the product and view any criticism as a personal attack and underestimate the power of the internet as a means of delivering a message. When a manufacturer releases a product to the marketplace then he has a legal and moral duty to ensure that the item performs as advertised. When the item is shown to have a fault then the manufacturer is required, under law, to correct the fault or replace the item. Similarly, we, as modellors, have a duty to our fellow modellors to report a problem that occurs. By highlighting a problem (and not sweeping it under the carpet) then both the manufacturer and the modellor benefit. By killing the messenger, then the manufacturer loses credibility in the marketplace.

I have made a personal commitment to no longer purchase any product from the manufacturer involved and will view any future purchases from other manufacturers, based on the manner in which they respond to any product criticism.

Steve,

Love you (shameless gratitude).

I would fear Bachmann or anyone, if I was spouting lies. But I am one of those whose memory is so poor I can’t keep track of a lie, it’s just easier to recall the truth. Another one of those things I like about Dave and believe he sees in me.

Thanks for the info on the Bumblebee, you do know I have it’s twin. That’s because I liked what I did for you so much, I built one for myself as my demo loco. It too has been terrific.

Am running behind on the Connie gearbox project, have to change that real soon. But you are hearing what I am hearing about it. Dave is still running it, but not as often (I think).

Thanks again, Steve.

Barry - BBT

Barry Olsen said:
I will say in my position, I am looking for the negatives to address and solve, but I was hoping for a few more positive comments, you know a couple of "atta boys". Very hard to come by. But the process works. Dave's comments always include the "how-to", which I can accept or avoid, but the important thing for me is that the comments are direct, honest and to the point, no wastes of time or having to guess what Dave is trying to say.

The point is that without Dave, I may not have the solution to the problem even today. But Dave and I can converse and agree on the definition of the problem and possible solutions.

Dave did this for Bachmann on the first edtitions of the Shay and it was misunderstood as being a criticism. This impression continued for a long time. One day I received a call from Dick Maddox, explaining to me that he/Bachmann were getting ready to sue Dave Goodson, basically for denegrating their products. Dick and I talked about this scenario for awhile where I explained that Dave was trying to help. Dick asked if I thought he could talk to Dave. I said of course and they did. Later on comment came back again and again, Dick said I seem to have bneen listening to the wrong people (his people). The point here is that Dick moved on and the “people” are still there, continuing the defamation.


What is true for Barry as a businessman and inventor is true for anyone in a position of responsibility in private enterprise. “Yes men” are as useful as a fifth leg on a dog. On the other hand, so are whiners without solutions.

Barry + Dave = 3. The two of you banging heads together get a better result than either of you could achieve separately.

Bob Townsend, who turned Avis into a successful car rental outfit from nothing, wrote a wonderful little read back in 1970 called “Up The Organization”. He has this to say about the elite business school graduates who fill the management ranks of many corporations:

“This elite, in my opinion, is missing some pretty fundamental requirements for success: humility; respect for people on the firing line; deep understanding of the nature of the business and the kind of people who can enjoy themselves making it prosper; respect from way down the line; a demonstrated record of guts, industry, loyalty down, judgment, fairness, and honesty under pressure.”

Based on Barry’s comments, we may conclude that Bachmann is burdened with more of these types than is good for them. Again, based on Barry’s comments, we may conclude that Dave Goodson is unlikely to be a graduate of an elite business school.