Large Scale Central

Expanding to add interest

Operations
#1

My current layout consists of a balloon track and yards (partially complete) indoors, and a main line terminating in a large wye outdoors. This is a nice set up for an out-and-back passenger excursion, but doesn’t offer much in the way of switching operations outdoors.

To add some interest, I have my eye on the open garden area between the legs of the wye. I have track in stock and cooler weather is coming.

I laid out some paper templates tonight to see what I could easily add. I have both “Wide” (10’) and #6 switches in stock. All my outdoor switches to date (3) are #6. I’m thinking of making a rule that all main-line switches be #6, but allow tighter switches inside yards and sidings. Does this make sense or am I wasting my #6’s for sidings with this thought?

In surveying the area, I could use 1 “wide” and get about 8 Ft. of clear industry siding beyond the switch. -OR- I could use the #6 on the main leading directly to the “Wide”. This would give me two industrial sidings, one about 7 Ft. the other about 5 Ft. Using straights beyond the switches would allow coupling without any problems.

Are two tracks really better than 1? Maybe I should look at other locations where I could add a second industry to use the second switch.

Decisions - Decisions. No matter what I decide, I’ll probably change it in a year or two anyway :slight_smile:

JR

#2

I started using #6’s on my mainline.
#4’s on spurs, but passing remained #6.
Branchlines are #4, but I am narrow-gauge steam.

Another option is double-up your mainline track.
You can leave the “wye” for future use, but have a balloon track at the end, two tracks all the way, you can feed them into your indoor to make a loop indoors, and you can continuously run.

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#3

I’d opt for another industry at another location this way your “local frt” will have more than one stop to make in switching out customers.

#4

I was wondering about that very topic, Fred. I have a double siding that I was planning on using for a single industry, but I’m wondering if I get more interest with another industry instead. Same about of traffic, basically, as I wouldn’t gain any extra room. I would get to build a new industry - always an attraction. Decisions. Decisions.

#5

Jon,

Are you approaching this from the wrong direction? What is the industry? What do they make, store, mine, load or transfer? Why don’t you consider an industry you’d like to model and then decide how many sidings or what length of siding you will need in relation to the building, yard, station or platform? Just a thought. No offense, but from what I know you might consider a scrap metal dealer. (Quick, duck I’m going to get hit for that one.) Maybe you could be a representative for used rail equipment or better yet a supplier of material for art projects for a large city redevelopment of an old abandoned railroad station? I understand people are really buying into those old city railroad stations these days.

Scrap yards have one long siding for a crane to stuff old gondolas with scrap steel. But a supplier of metal for art projects would need an inbound supply line of old scrap and yet, another track to carefully load the art project bound for the city. I can see a need for some gondolas, flats, fish belly flats and even a drop deck heavy load flat.

How about a rock train squealing around the turn coming from the quarry. Way too many units for the number of cars, but the heavy load and braking needs would require the multiple units.

#6

Now, you have to understand, this from a guy who some folks believe dosn’t have a railroad and has no idea what he’s talking about.

I would do the double, with ballon track, FIRST, to get the mainline functional.

THEN, you sit back with trains running and imagineer.

Look at what you have, where things could go, what industry, what spurs, what loads.
Where you put passing sidings.

The balloon is to get trains running, without a “wye”.

Heck, that’s what I did on the railroad that doesn’t exist…

#7

All good answers. Thanks guys :slight_smile: TOC - I 'd love to be able to have a balloon track at both ends. Unfortunately I don’t have the room at the current end-of-track. If I can ever get through the front steps, I have plenty of room to curve back on the main just beyond them or on the ‘north slope’. I don’t know if you remember the Deep Cut thread from MLS a few years ago. The cut is a wye tail and current end-of track. In order to curve back from there I’d have to excavate most of my front yard or figure out how to gain 20+ inches in 10 feet. [url=photo.cvsry.com/deep2-1280.jpg]

[/url] Deep Cut before the Wye was built - Looking away from end-of-track Right Click on photo & choose Open Link to enlarge [url=photo.cvsry.com/Deep1024.jpg]

[/url] Deep Cut after the Wye was built - Looking toward end-of-track & wye switch Right Click on photo & choose Open Link to enlarge - [url=photo.cvsry.com/Walk3-1024.jpg]

[/url] Walk Junction - The other wye tail and end-of-track - Looking toward the front steps Sorry this one is so small - but you can Right Click on photo & choose Open Link to enlarge - Long range plan is to jack hammer out those fieldstone steps and replace them with decking at the height of the top step. Track can then continue underneath toward the empty area on the North side of the house. Ric - Actually I’ve given some thought to what the industry will be. I have some concrete cylinders that with some silver paint and some cut hardware cloth could become a tank farm quite quickly. I only have two tank cars, so there would have to be a reason to spot a box or gondola there as well. Your ideas are all pretty good. Bruce & Fred - I agree. I think I’ll save my #6’s for a passing siding (the original plan) and use one of the ‘wide’ switches for industry #1. Jon Edit 06/01/09: Repaired broken photo links.

#8

Jon ,
I don’t know much about the American way of logistics concerning bulk oils ,fuel and liquids,but would there be a need for wagons other than tanks for carrying oil products in drums ? And cardboard packing boxes of greases and the like ? Put the boxes on pallets , get a fork lift , and load them into your gondolas or boxes on a separate loading dock .
Or do you keep liquids strictly separated ?
Oil terminals here tend to act as distribution depots for allied products .
Just a thought .
Mike
ps What beautiful trees those are in your garden , which breed are they ?

#9

Hey Jon, that first picture of the “big cut” shows a different view than I’ve seen for a while. The leg of the wye goes toward the house from the turnout in the second picture, right? Is this right on your property line or do you own the property on picture left of this first picture? This leads to a question of another location of a reverse loop instead of at the end of the “big cut” or the leg of the wye stopped by the front porch steps.

Using Dave’s theory of continuous operations by way of a loop of track or a point to point connected by two reverse loops. I’m wondering if you have explored another location with a turnout coming off the track heading toward the wye and the “big cut” outside of the basement that would allow for a reverse loop?

These are the style of questions that should occupy every railroaders mind. Where can I expand next? How can I claim more realestate for my railroad?

#10

I worry a little about that tree with the cut so close.

#11

Tom,

Thank God someone is worried about that tree. Its a good job for you, being that it is Connecticut and you are in upstate Illinois. Kind of makes you feel associated with Jon’s railroad, doesn’t it? It also helps Jon out, because he’s got to worry about building a railroad and needs somebody to take some of that responsibility. I guess. Also, if you are worrying about it and it dies, Jon won’t feel so bad because you were responsible. What a great service you are providing. My wife, Jan, says I can only worry about one thing at a time. She has assigned me “World Hunger”. I 've got to resolve that before I can get another project to worry about. I’ve got World Hunnger, you’ve got Jon’s tree. I guess we are doing enough. Man this is hard work, isn’t it?

#12

Well, since the cut is already there, I’d surely widen it for double track. Whatever roots were there are already terminated.

Getting your layout so a train can go around unattended is a good step. It’s not really relaxing to ALWAYS have to reverse a train.

By the way, what kind of power is running on this layout? I’m guessing battery power, since there is no mention of electronics to handle the 2 reversing loops.

Regards, Greg

#13

OK - Lots of questions. I’ll try and field them in order.

Mike Morgan said:
[i][/i] What beautiful trees those are in your garden , which breed are they ?
Thanks Mike. I'm assuming you refer to the larger trees on the left side of the first picture. They are a breed of pine. Not certain, but they might be Blue Spruce. I didn't plant them. The big tree in the back of that shot is nearly 100 feet tall. It is a huge "swamp maple". Someday it will take out either my house, or the neighbors.

As far as industry goes. We have several re-packagers near hear that get tank cars in, send 18 wheelers with cardboard boxes out. Could just as easily be box cars. One repackages cooking oil, the other makes products from alcohol.

Ric Golding said:
Hey Jon, that first picture of the "big cut" shows a different view than I've seen for a while. The leg of the wye goes toward the house from the turnout in the second picture, right? Is this right on your property line or do you own the property on picture left of this first picture? This leads to a question of another location of a reverse loop instead of at the end of the "big cut" or the leg of the wye stopped by the front porch steps.[i][/i]
Yes Ric, that is an old pre-wye view. In than view, one leg branches off to the right just past the big root, the other just before the large boxwood in the background My property is on the right, the lot line is just a few inches to the left of the pine trees. I think my best option for another reverse loop is beyond the steps - OR - on benchwork in the back yard. Both ideas would be long-range plans.
Tom Ruby said:
I worry a little about that tree with the cut so close.
Tom - I think Ric's response about covers it :) That cut is now three years old and the trees are just fine. That big root is the only large root I encountered. I didn't cut anything bigger than a finger while digging. If the tree dies now - it's all your fault :O
Greg Elmassian said:
[i][/i]By the way, what kind of power is running on this layout? I'm guessing battery power, since there is no mention of electronics to handle the 2 reversing loops.
Greg - I am running both track power and battery. Indoors I have a short reversing section in the balloon track with a DPDT switch. Outdoors, the tail of the wye that's in the cut is the reverse section. I have a DPDT in an outdoor box just out of view in the photos. It handles reversing the tail polarity. All of the tails and legs are wired as blocks so I can have a bunch of outbound trains that hold on the wye for the main before they can return.

I hear what everyone is saying about continuous running. Aren’t you the same guys that preach against it :slight_smile: I had a continuous run indoors and I tore it out. I really have no interest in sitting and watching the same train go by over and over again. I CAN bring a couple of trains out, park them in the gardens and sit with a cold one enjoying the view for hours.

JR

#14

Jon, you said -

“I hear what everyone is saying about continuous running. Aren’t you the same guys that preach against it I had a continuous run indoors and I tore it out. I really have no interest in sitting and watching the same train go by over and over again. I CAN bring a couple of trains out, park them in the gardens and sit with a cold one enjoying the view for hours.”

Great answer, my railroad my rules. :wink:

I do think we all need to be challenged by why and how we do things. If nothing more to justify in our own minds what we are trying ot accomplish.

Doug Matheson and I have continuing conversations on this subject. In working out a problem for the up coming “OPs Session”, the question came up "Why did I build the track to “Cat Dump”? What industry did it serve? What industry was on the track? Well, in recent months, I have added “Lighthouse Supply”. But before that, I did not have a purpose for the track, except that I wanted to run trains down along my driveway and have a runaround and a turntable at the end. The question has caused me to rethink my purpose and come up with a scenario of old abandoned track that once served a mine and now is just used for tourist runs. Good enough answer for me, but in including the trackage in an “Ops Session”, it may need a little more work. Maybe a mine or some other form of industry. I guess all of these questions are fluid and keep the brain cells occupied with “training thoughts”.

#15

Glad I could help :smiley:

#16

Good answer, Tom :wink:

#17

Ric ,
If the needles have a blue stripe down the centre , it is a Blue Spruce . Beautiful .
If you want to persuade the tree to put out roots from a large leader–the thing sticking across the canyon–
take a sharp knife and cut a 1/4 inch ring around the bark on the root .DO NOT CUT ALL ROUND .A Maximum of 1/2 circumference is more than adequate . Take a piece of polythene sheet and use it like a bandage to wrap some Spagnum Moss with Rooting Compound around the injury you have created . You will find that roots will appear and , properly trained , they will go where you want them . The time taken for the roots to appear depends on the tree–evergreens tend to do this faster than other trees .
In your case , looking at the photo , I would suggest doing that just to the left of the canyon ,say 3 inches . When the roots have started , gradually remove the polythene --over a week of two , not in 5 minutes–and encourage the roots to go where they are needed --in this case , down the side of the canyon . Whatever happens in all this , never let the roots dry out . The poly is there to retain water as well as acting like a little greenhouse .Just make sure you can always see condensation on it . This can be done any time of year , though Spring and Autumn are better .
It works , believe me . You can also do the same trick (this time it’s called Air Layering ) on a tree branch --I have done this to produce miniature trees with thick trunks .
When you have a good crop of root fibres , you can separate off the unwanted leader root . If Air Layer, cut the root fibres and a very short piece of the branch away from the tree , then plant it as per a normal tree .
I had a parallel hobby to trains , using Bonsai techniques to produce scale trees . You can cheat on waiting for trees to grow by using the above techniques .
There must be someone else on the forum who can confirm this technique ;you may also find it in a book on Bonsai .
Gardening lecture over , I shall have to go and lie down–me 'ead 'urts .
Mike

#18

Another one worried about that tree. Oh dear.

When I began the task of hand digging that cut I discussed it with the property manager (Marilyn, my wife). She said she didn’t really like the trees as they blocked the view down the street too much - so if’n I killed 'em she wouldn’t be upset. Armed with that approval, and an electric sawz-all, I dug happily for weeks. Strangely I didn’t encounter any large roots except the one that I dug under. I cut hundreds of little ones, most no thicker than a shoelace and a few as thick as my thumb. The tree never flinched. It didn’t even bleed much sap where I made the cuts.

The second tree in the photo has a large root very near the surface. You can almost see some of it as a horizontal line to the right of the track. This root is Pine Summit, the highest point on the line. When I first laid track I shaved about 1/4 inch off the top to flatten it for the track to cross. It bled sap like mad for weeks. Last spring when I fixed the grade and built the wye, I cut a little more and it bled again. This spring the track had a horrible bump at the root, so I cut almost an inch off the top and buried it in crusher fines. Still no complaint from the tree.

In any case, it’s nice to know that if I was worried about roots, that there is a way to help the tree recover. I wonder Mike, do you think that technique would work with Maple trees? I have my eye on the last un-improved area near the railroad. The base of that huge maple. I’d like to build a patio there, but the roots are right on the surface. With the size if that tree and it’s proximity to my house I don’t dare upset it.

Gee - I’m surprised that I didn’t get any warnings about cave-ins or fall-in dangers :slight_smile: When I posted “What to do about Deep Cut” on MLS 3 years ago, I had all kinds of people worried. I should put up fences… I needed to build a tunnel and back fill… The sides would collapse… and so on. Ric Golding had the only sane idea. Leave it be and let nature take it’s course. That is exactly what I have done. For two years I’ve dug out what dirt collapses from the sides over the winter, and it still stands. The sides are no longer parallel, they look more like a trapezoid / . Some day, perhaps next spring, the walls will fully collapse. When that happens I’ll open up the sides the be a manageable angle and put down some rock or something to keep it from eroding. Let nature do the heavy work. Ric was right on target.

JR

#19

The technique will theoretically work on any tree . It does not always work in practise , I have been using the trick since 1966 , and had a roughly 90% success rate . I have found that deciduous trees are better done just before new growth starts , that is normally spring time here . In the more tropical lands , it does not seem to matter .
Just to make sure people get the idea , you have to imagine making the tree put down as much support with a lot of little root fibres as with one large leader and a lot less fibres . It also promotes healthier upper tree growth .
Mike
ps Don’t trim the roots all round the tree , just do one quarter at most

#20

Jon.

I have a point-to-loop-to-point.

There is a 12’ or so section no normally used in ops that complets the upper loop.
The waybills are written to avoid it.

However, if I need to test-run a loco, or run to know EXACTLY how long a loco will run on a set size of battery, that’s it.

How do you think I am able to tell folks how long locos run on specific batteries and calculate curent draw based upon battery MAH rating and time?

But, if you recall Herb Chaudiere, who used to write articles in the old GR on the CRANIS Garden Railway, his was specifically point-to-point, and after he saw mine, he lamented on the inability of his to just let it run when guests were over.

I went to his place one day and showed him how and where.

Got the usual “you don’t know what you’re talking about” and “that can’t work” bit I have grown accustomed to.

He died within the year, and at his wake, we went and ran his trains, and the loop section was exactly where I showed him, and it worked flawlessly.

That’s all. If you an incorporate it, do it.
If not, live with it!

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