Large Scale Central

Exchange rate

Sorry all about that very long winded post!

I don’t think that for one person to get rich another must be made poorer. But I do think that’s implied in arguments for the gold standard. If money is a finite commodity, the only way for one person to get it is to capture it from someone else. If money is an infinitely elastic thing–like our paper money–then the supply of it theoretically increases to match, not exceed, the labor output of American workers.

There’s the famous argument in Aristotle that goes “all exchanges must be exchanges of equal value.” No rational person would knowingly trade an object of greater value for an object of lesser value. Doing so would be an act of charity, not an exchange in the economic sense. Two people meet, they bargain until both feel a point of equal value has been reached. I have a jug of wine, you have some olives: we bargain until we both think the amount of olives equals the amount of wine. At that point we make the trade. So, Aristotle asks, what is profit? How can trades of equal value result in profit? It sounds like a stupid question: “what is profit?” Economists just say “income less expenses.” But what is profit, exactly? Students usually want to say it’s subjective: one guy values the wine more because he’s an alcoholic. But it’s not subjective that Bill Gates is richer than me–it’s objectively true. If I only buy computers when I think they are equal to the money they cost, what is profit?

The Aristotle bit makes sense if you think of exchange as barter. But money, because it introduces the symbolic into the exchange, makes it harder. What is the money symbolizing? If a bank makes me a five year loan of $1000, and I buy a jug of wine with it, the money symbolizes not real, already-done labor, but potential labor–labor I have not done yet. The bank issued money it did not actually have, in the hopes that I would work and produce value that would exceed the value of the money loaned. It’s crazy if you think about it. We have kind of a “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy with money.

Under a gold standard, there’s a limit on how much money the world can contain. If gold is scarce in my neighborhood, borrowing costs are high and payback is really tough. If money is plentiful, borrowing costs are low and payback is easier. If the money supply is elastic, it can shrink or grow in response to changes in material conditions. A gold standard is an inelastic money supply.

The TARP money that the Bush and Obama admin’s pumped out was designed to address the fact that money had suddenly vanished–when asset prices dropped, billions of dollars just vanished, poof. This should have caused deflation and sky high interest rates. But the Fed did what by some accounts it was designed to do–it lowered interest rates way down and pumped money into the economy to maintain equilibrium.

Gold standard advocates suggest that if you had a gold standard, the money could not vanish–it would be real value, not paper value, and you would not have speculative excesses. But the problem, as before, is lending. Even under a gold standard credit is the economy’s fuel. Banks would still be lending more out than they have in reserve: they would still be creating money. So money can’t be simply the barter of wages, because often what’s being exchanged is not labor already done, a day’s pay: what’s being exchanged is next month’s pay.

Another long winded post! Sorry.

Mike - You said - “No rational person would knowingly trade an object of greater value for an object of lesser value. Doing so would be an act of charity, not an exchange in the economic sense. Two people meet, they bargain until both feel a point of equal value has been reached.”

Don’t we do that with buying or trading for model trains all the time? Oh wait, you said a rational person. Pretty well established, it would be hard to call any of us “rational”. Two people meet, they bargain until one realizes the other one is totally irrational and sucked into the moment of having to have that toy and then BAMM, economics happen and the exchange rate is thrown off kilter again.

Hey–it was Aristotle, not me

Sure! One of the classic answers to “what is profit” is “profit” is “errors in business judgement.” That is, one party in any exchange is being duped or has bad information or is irrational.

some others:

Profit is “the reward for deferring gratification”
Profit is the approriation of “surplus value” from the worker: that is, he digs 50 tons of coal but only gets paid the value of 40.
Profit is the result of marginal utility, i.e the utility of the toy train as a status object/source of pleasure is greater than the money as same, ad everyone’s marginal utility is different.

Aristotle would point out that still, all trades only happen when both parties agree a point of equivalence has been reached

Ric Golding said:
Mike - You said - "No rational person would knowingly trade an object of greater value for an object of lesser value. Doing so would be an act of charity, not an exchange in the economic sense. Two people meet, they bargain until both feel a point of equal value has been reached."

Don’t we do that with buying or trading for model trains all the time? Oh wait, you said a rational person. Pretty well established, it would be hard to call any of us “rational”. Two people meet, they bargain until one realizes the other one is totally irrational and sucked into the moment of having to have that toy and then BAMM, economics happen and the exchange rate is thrown off kilter again.


LMAO.

Ric your great.

In my business I would charge the customer for my wholesale cost of materials, labor (at the agreed rate) plus labor costs (health insurance, disability, taxes, payroll service), overhead (insurance, printer ink, replacement tools and vehicle maintenance) and a % mark-up as profit. Profit was saved for business expansion or contingencies. In larger corporations that then also becomes research and development or shareholder dividends.

My customers signed a contract stating the final price for the work to be done. They received value for the work I preformed and I earned a living. The profit was incorporated into the final price and is a normal component of doing business.

Would it not be more honest to have a saver’s market rather than a borrower’s economy? IIRC, prior to the 1950’s we were a nation of savers, before the introduction of the credit card and easy loans. A low interest rate helps the government keep the interest on the debt low (possibly artificially low) but anyone that wishes to save money in a bank passbook account or CD product are loosing value as the cost of money increases.

I think we agree on the mechanics of money, I do not understand there to be a finite amount of money available.

Mike,

you describe the modern day money system as something, that is needed to stay.

i think there is the main fault.
let’s go down to the basics.
what is “money” needed for?
one use is to store or guard wealth. there gold, bullets, silver, beans, steel and toiletpaper would fill the demand perfectly.
interests on “stored” wealth is not necessary, untill the “money” used looses substance or worth.

the other use is basicly making barter easier. (if you want to “sell” me something, you don’t have to take something from me, you don’t really want, since you get a token from me, that entitles you to get what you want from somebody else.
so money is a token, an I.O.U. to somebody elses productivity.
since everything does not change ownership always and permanently, these “tokens”, this money, needs to present only a fraction of all the goods and services existing.
from a tree to furniture the usefullness, the worth of wood gets higher. the worrth grows through the application of labour, tools and mashines(in themselves as well material, labour and tools)
people get richer.(if they produce quicker, than decay works)
up to here every “money” represents a part of real things with a worth.

now comes your moneysystem.
each bill is an I.O.U. we accept them, because we trust, that somebody will give us something with real worth for them.

  • ok, ok, lately bills get replaced more and more by other kinds of I.O.U.s like banc accounts, bonds, obligations, shares and so on. but it’s still I.O.U.s -
    as you pointed out, a bank uses 1000$ in its hand to “create” at least 8000$ in form of credits, it gives out.
    what you did not point out, that that is only the first step. these 8000 will be used by the same or the next bank to create 64000$ credit. and so on…
    money left being a means of barter for real things. money creation is nearly borderless.
    the only restriction for the banks, how much money they can create, is how many credits they can swindle into the poblation.
    "buy now, pay later"shams, creditcards, overdraw credits, … we don’t get them, because the banks love us.
    we get them, because every cent, that we spend before we own it, makes some bankster richer.
    the more money gets “created”, the lower gets the demand for money. less demand means it looses its imaginary worth.
    in comes the interest, to keep the money stable. but interest creates even more money and debt. what a lovely merry-go-round!
    oh, i nearly forgot the other culprit, that is sitting at the table: goverments. they spend more money, than they get taxes.
    the resulting gap they finance with bonds (I.O.U.s!!) the interest for the bonds and the repayment for the bonds they finance with new bonds. (any company trying that would find its owner quickly behind bars)
    the amount of these I.O.U.s floating around have surpassed by far the existing real wealth in most civilized countries.

remember the different “bubbles”? well, the whole US is a bubble now (as are germany, britain, france and every other modern country)
if the chinese would try to cash in all the bonds and other I.O.U.s, they hold in $$ and euro, the western “industrialized” world would cease to exist as such. (well, china itself too, because of loosing all its customers.)

i would heartily agree with you, if you would state, that there seems to be no way out of this toxic monetary system.
but as you seem to advocate it as being good, i have to disagree.

Yes Korm! now we’re talking!

And what upsets me the most - yep that kind of thing upsets me - is that the SOBs who pull that charade don’t do a bit of productive work anywhere along this process. The bastards just shuffle paper and illusions. Grand, just grand!

Gee I thought my retirement that is sorta fixed and prices like gas-petrol going up and up was a problem but I see everything is just fine !! How I missed that is beyond my limited scope on financial affairs. All is well All is well

TOF

I never said “all is well.” All I argued is that the gold standard was a bad idea. The money system we have today compromises a lot of different interests: none of them are altogether completely happy. I was neither endorsing nor dismissing, just describing. I don’t want to turn this into a political thread as they are banned.

Gas prices have gone up and down alot–they were really high in 2008, then they dropped, now they are going up again. A rise in the price of a single commodity–like gas–doesn’t in itself constitute inflation. But it can cause general inflation and still might.

It is demonstrably true, however, that the US financial system has been more stable since 194O then it ever was before that–there have been no catastrophic depressions as there were in 1837, 1857, 1873, 1893, 1907 or the 1930s. Does that mean there won’t be in the future? I have no idea. I doubt it.

Kormsen, you are arguing for an end to credit altogether? People have done that before, but it’s hard to see how you could do that. if I have 1000 bucks, and I want to lend it to someone, I’m not sure how you could make it illegal. The money is my property–how could you tell me what i can and can’t do with it? Are you saying I can’t invest it? Strict Islam prohibits usury, that is, moneylending: is that really the way you want to go?

Credit buying is not some new phenomenon in American history. Jefferson was always in debt. Farmers, with few exceptions, are always borrowing to finance next year’s crop. Seed, fertilizer, tools, equipment: that’s been true since the Revolution and before. Farmers are almost always debtors. Mark Twain’s novel "the Gilded Age, written in the 1870s, is all about how Americans are crazy about debt and credit. Capitalism is about the power of accumulated capital, lent at interest. All the productive enterprises of the 19th century–the RRs, the steel, the textiles, shipbuilding, the auto industry: they all required massive amounts of credit and debt. They were capital intensive industries. That’s why it’s called industrial capitalism

The problem with our money supply is that it has a high level of ambiguity and indeterminacy. Also the good thing about our money supply is that is has a high level of ambiguity and indeterminacy. On thing to consider about those guys selling gold on TV: they seem perfectly happy to take your paper money.

Hans-Joerg Mueller said:
the SOBs who pull that charade don't do a bit of productive work anywhere along this process. The bastards just shuffle paper and illusions.
Frightening................... because I agree with you 100% :D Ralph
Ralph Berg said:
Hans-Joerg Mueller said:
the SOBs who pull that charade don't do a bit of productive work anywhere along this process. The bastards just shuffle paper and illusions.
Frightening................... because I agree with you 100% :D Ralph
And here son is why I wont you to do well in school so you can do this and make millions at it. :)

Has anyone seen this video before? I dug it out of YouTube, it did not appear to be political in nature as I too am trying to stay away from the “EEEVIL TWO” topics. :wink:

mike omalley said:
. It is demonstrably true, however, that the US financial system has been more stable since 194O then it ever was before that--there have been no catastrophic depressions as there were in 1837, 1857, 1873, 1893, 1907 or the 1930s. Does that mean there won't be in the future? I have no idea. I doubt it.
right. since the thirties there were less economical crisis. at what price? as far as i can see, at the price to make debts and pay them off with new debts.
Quote:
. Kormsen, you are arguing for an end to credit altogether? People have done that before, but it's hard to see how you could do that. if I have 1000 bucks, and I want to lend it to someone, I'm not sure how you could make it illegal. The money is my property--how could you tell me what i can and can't do with it? Are you saying I can't invest it? Strict Islam prohibits usury, that is, moneylending: is that really the way you want to go?
no. i would not want to put an end to credits. i would like to put an end to fraudulent credits. if you would want me to lend you a hundred bucks, i could do that only, if i had(at least) a hundred bucks in my pocket. but if you go to a bankster, who got a mere hundred bucks in his safe, you'll get a 5000 bucks consumer credit without problems. he just creates some electronic bits on your credit card. and when his bluff gets called, he screams for bailout money! (so that he can pay management boni - in electronic bits...) if a bank could not give out more credits, than it got assets, if goverments could not pay off their I.O.U.s with new debts, then money would have some relation to the real wealth and productivity of a country.

but nowadays we all got accustomed to monopoly money - created out of hot air.
and the bad news is, that we still sell our real assets in change for this fictional, artificial worth.
so the creators of this illusion of value can amass the fruit of others work, without doing anything but “making” money.

Quote:
. Credit buying is not some new phenomenon in American history. Jefferson was always in debt. Farmers, with few exceptions, are always borrowing to finance next year's crop. Seed, fertilizer, tools, equipment: that's been true since the Revolution and before. Farmers are almost always debtors. Mark Twain's novel "the Gilded Age, written in the 1870s, is all about how Americans are crazy about debt and credit. Capitalism is about the power of accumulated capital, lent at interest. All the productive enterprises of the 19th century--the RRs, the steel, the textiles, shipbuilding, the auto industry: they all required massive amounts of credit and debt. They were capital intensive industries. That's why it's called industrial capitalism
fine. i agree. but didn't you forget something? as far as i can see, after the thirties or forties the percentage of non-productive credits grew like crazy. a production credit makes sense. it is a bet, that the financed production will satisfy lender and borrower. but personal credits to buy a TV, a car or a house (non-productive goods) just enslave persons to the banks. by consuming, what they hope too earn in the future, they loose their future. the banks get all or part of their "created" money back. with interests. and in many cases they get the house or car at a fraction of its worth too.
Quote:
. The problem with our money supply is that it has a high level of ambiguity and indeterminacy. Also the good thing about our money supply is that is has a high level of ambiguity and indeterminacy. On thing to consider about those guys selling gold on TV: they seem perfectly happy to take your paper money.
i tend to see that simpler. we got lots of money more, than things to aquire. and, remember, since there is no gold standard, this money is simply worthless. just a biiiig heap of I.O.U.s emitted by bancrupt entieties. fiat money - trustfull money. and everybody is trustfull to find some stoopit, who still accepts this monopoly money, after TSHTF

(what do these guys sell? gold certificates?)