Large Scale Central

Does the gearing really not matter?

General Discussion
#201
TonyWalsham said:
Well not quite. He actually said pull much stronger. You definitely would be able to pull stronger with a lower ratio. At a given voltage the power output of the gearbox at the final drive would be more powerful. With a reduced speed. That works just like a car gearbox. Now, assuming that extra power could be applied to the rails, you would be able to pull more with a low ratio than with a higher ratio. We prove that all the time.

If you need to go faster apply a little more voltage.


Tony, I give up. I am sorry. Please tell me that you are joking… Zubi

#202

Hmm. As an ignorant but interested novice, it seems to me that Zubi has made his point well–the motor is powerful enough that changing the gear ratio would not increase the number of cars the K27 would pull. As I read it, this is what Stan Ames claimed in the original quote.

There are several videos on Youtube of the K27 pulling cars VERY slowly, for example this one, posted by Stan Ames, who apparently is evil for some reason I can’t quite grasp and may have rigged the thing in some way

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1eW4phOT4E

But then there are other videos showing the K27 pulling quite nicely at a low speed while also denouncing the thing as badly geared! Huh?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VP9Y7itCtOw

The video above seems to be demonstrating that the K27 can do precisely what the comments claim it can’t do!

I’d love to try one out, and see if I could figure out what the fuss is.

#203

I think we have a communication malfunction here.
A lower gear ratio is numerically higher.
It is obvious that a 1:29 will have a reduced top speed compared to 1:14.5
It will also run slower when the same voltage is applied to both.
I fail to understand how their can be any disagreement over what is basic physics.
Ralph

#204
Ralph Berg said:
I think we have a communication malfunction here. A lower gear ratio is numerically higher. It is obvious that a 1:29 will have a reduced top speed compared to 1:14.5 It will also run slower when the same voltage is applied to both. I fail to understand how their can be any disagreement over what is basic physics. Ralph
See thar, us's boys frum da South aren't so stewpid affer all, Huh?

Ralph your above thought was the entire reason I posted the thread title so many pages ago…how we got here…whew…I agree with your assessment.

cale

#205

I don’t think anyone disagreed with that. Nobody ever said gearing didn’t matter–didn’t Ames himself log on and say that yyes, gearing mattered, but not to pulling power?

But the original post was about pulling power, and whether or not different gearing would give the thing different pulling power, and the answer seems to be “no.”

#206
Cale Nelson said:
Ralph Berg said:
I think we have a communication malfunction here. A lower gear ratio is numerically higher. It is obvious that a 1:29 will have a reduced top speed compared to 1:14.5 It will also run slower when the same voltage is applied to both. I fail to understand how their can be any disagreement over what is basic physics. Ralph
See thar, us's boys frum da South aren't so stewpid affer all, Huh?

Ralph your above thought was the entire reason I posted the thread title so many pages ago…how we got here…whew…I agree with your assessment.

cale


Using the same motor, with different gear ratios, results in what I described above.
One can compensate with a stronger motor, as is claimed.
From the videos…I would say it works.
Could it work better? Probably. But, I find most anything I buy could be better.
It hardly seems the product deserves the “big stink” made about it here.
As for Mr. Stan Ames, he lacks creditability with me. There is obviously a relationship with Bachmann. Compensation can come in many forms…besides cash.
Ralph

#207
mike omalley said:
I don't think anyone disagreed with that. Nobody ever said gearing didn't matter--didn't Ames himself log on and say that yyes, gearing mattered, but not to pulling power?

But the original post was about pulling power, and whether or not different gearing would give the thing different pulling power, and the answer seems to be “no.”


Come on Mike.
You are an educator.
They have compensated with a stronger motor. A stronger motor will pull more amps, if the efficiency of the two motors are equal.
Given equal motors, a 1:29 gear will pull more weight. A 1:14.5 ratio will cause more wheel slippage, on start, regardless of whether you compensate with a stronger motor.
Ralph

#208

It may not deserve a big stink, but again, as a person who has melted down a pittmen from running it too close or outside it’s safe operating envelope, if the K was equipped with a 1:29, it would be improved.

  1. less or no lugging down on grades or heavy loads.
  2. less amperage drawn.
  3. no more “jackrabbit starts”

Simple… it would have been a lot better. I have an AML K4 Pacific that had the same gearing problem, and had exactly the same negative characteristics, and by putting in a lower geared Pittman motor, my problems are over.

It’s just that simple… yes there are other factors like TOC’s aluminium rail will give much more traction and SS is the slippriest, so Stan might be slipping and at max traction when TOC could theoretically pull more, but the 3 things above are simple, clear, and apparently have been OBSERVED by OWNERS of the loco. I have a Physics degree, and while I know a lot of theories, a true Physicist KNOWS there is also the REAL world, where there are other factors you MIGHT miss in your theory.

Regards, Greg

#209

I will expand further.
Torque and horsepower are two different animals.
An optimal gear ratio is dependent on both the application and the motor specifications.
For optimal pulling power, gearing has to be matched to take advantage of the torque curve of the power plant.
Even if the torque curve matches the horsepower curve in electric motors, pulling power is going to be different at different engine rpms.
Peak horsepower for internal combustion engines is achieved at high rpms. Peak torque is usually achieved much lower in the RPM range.
Cars and trucks have multiple gear ratio transmissions to keep the engine closer to the power curve of the engine.
Gearing matters just as much to pulling power as it does to top speed, as well as low speed.
Ralph

#210

If you can’t dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull sh*t.

And the road goes on forever,

#211
Darryl Noble said:
If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull sh*t.

And the road goes on forever,


Since I am well aware I’m not brilliant, I must be working with the “bull sh*t” :lol:
Ralph

And the party never ends.

#212

Youz Guyz need to quit picking on or bashing Zubi and or Stanley. All you are doing is hashing and re-hashing what we already know about the k-27. Until Bachmann or a higher authority deems it necessary to re-think re-do or re-invent, there is really no reason to continue to bash Bachmann, and Zubi, and Stanley. I am not a rivet counter, like some and i’m not taking any sides here, I just take my trains out and have a good time with them! If they break, or don’t run right, and I can’t fix em I find somebody who will. To constantly hash and re-hash on these forums what we already do or don’t know is counter productive. and will serve no positive end results. You need to kiss and make up and put aside you’re feelings, complaints, and mostly SOUR GRAPES for your personal situations, and let’s MOVE FORWARD ok??? 14pages and counting of you said he said he didn’t say he did say, and waiting for confessions, and personal apologies is counter productive. As they say it’s time to “bury the hatchet” get over your bad selves, and geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeez “can’t we all get along?” Let bygones be bygones, and let’s all fall forward. You know the bottom line to all this is If you like the engine in question buy it, and if you don’t then DON’T But let’s move forward and get over our bad selves It’s Christmas time a time for forgiveness, and all that rot right? That’s my opinion and I’m sticking to it. Boy now I feel better, and can’t wait for the bashing for this comment right??? Hee Hee LOL Have to take things in life with a grain of salt, and move through life as positively and as smoothly as we can. Everybody makes mistakes, it’s how you handle em that counts, whether you admit to them or not…

#213
Stan Ames said:
Steve Featherkile said:
Mike,

If the K runs as fast as the fastest Lionel at full throttle, that suggests, but does not prove, that it’s starting speed will be somewhere in the neighborhood of a conventional Lionel, as well. Put another way, it’s starting speed will probably be too fast for our tastes on straight DC because of a too tall gear box. It would be much the same as trying to start a big block Mustang in third gear to get out of the garage and driveway. It could be done, but at what cost to the paint job?


“Starting voltage forward was 1.2V; reverse 1.0V, both at .2A. Full slip on straight track, at 13.5V, drew 1.7A forward and 1.8A reverse. Full slip on a #1600 curve, running forward, was 2.1A. These reading were taken on old brass track, with shiny plating on the drivers. Drawbar pull was 2.5 pounds.”

Taken from Garden Railways Bachmann K-27 locomotive review
By Dave Goodson
Published: Saturday, February 23, 2008

Stan Ames
www.tttrains.com/sjrp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-0iUbSXl2s


Fascinating. I talk about speed, and he answers with Volts, Amps and Drawbar pull. Go figure.

#214
Ralph Berg said:
I will expand further. Torque and horsepower are two different animals. An optimal gear ratio is dependent on both the application and the motor specifications. For optimal pulling power, gearing has to be matched to take advantage of the torque curve of the power plant. Even if the torque curve matches the horsepower curve in electric motors, pulling power is going to be different at different engine rpms. Peak horsepower for internal combustion engines is achieved at high rpms. Peak torque is usually achieved much lower in the RPM range. Cars and trucks have multiple gear ratio transmissions to keep the engine closer to the power curve of the engine. Gearing matters just as much to pulling power as it does to top speed, as well as low speed. Ralph
Ralph. The problem is, the theory doesn't fit with reality, so the reality is wrong. Just ask Zubi.
#215
mike omalley said:
Hmm. As an ignorant but interested novice, it seems to me that Zubi has made his point well--the motor is powerful enough that changing the gear ratio would not increase the number of cars the K27 would pull. As I read it, this is what Stan Ames claimed in the original quote.

There are several videos on Youtube of the K27 pulling cars VERY slowly, for example this one, posted by Stan Ames, who apparently is evil for some reason I can’t quite grasp and may have rigged the thing in some way

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1eW4phOT4E

But then there are other videos showing the K27 pulling quite nicely at a low speed while also denouncing the thing as badly geared! Huh?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VP9Y7itCtOw

The video above seems to be demonstrating that the K27 can do precisely what the comments claim it can’t do!

I’d love to try one out, and see if I could figure out what the fuss is.


Mike.

As you know, DCC has the ability to custom set the CV values to take care of any performance inadequacies.
What Mr Ames does not explain is which DCC decoder is he using, as in current rating, and what changes did he make to the CV’s to get the K-27 to perform like he says it does.
If Mr Ames finds it necessary to use a DCC decoder that can handle more than three amps, either he is using the higher rating to ovecome the excessive current draw under load, or, the decoder is not rated correctly.

I assume you do understand how a motor car gearbox works?
Our locos do not have the luxury of selectable multiple ratios, so it is important to get a ratio that is the best compromise.
So far, those who have actual field testing experience say the K-27 will use less power and perform more smoothly at low speed by having a 1:29 ratio rather than the existing 1:14.5.
Low speed lugging power will be greatly enhanced. As in double what it is at present.
Current draw will be reduced. Meaning less expensive DCC decoders and on board R/C ESC’s will be required.

If you think our practical experience of model trains over a 50 year + period counts for less than Mr Ames does, you still have a lot to learn about this hobby.
If and when you have any personal dealings with Mr Ames, either in business or technical, you will likely form a more realistic opinion of his competence.

#216

Ralph

The Highwaymen Johnny, Kris, Willie and Waylon two down two to go…

Cheers, the old fardt in Ore-Gun

#217
Darryl Noble said:
Ralph

The Highwaymen Johnny, Kris, Willie and Waylon two down two to go…

Cheers, the old fardt in Ore-Gun


Darryl,
The original is by Robert Earl Keene. I have both versions.
Ralph

#218

The original is by Robert Earl Keene. I have both versions.

Hmmm didn’t know that?

Still nice song Ralph no matter whom is doing the version…

Cheers, old fardt in Ore-Gun

#219
Darryl Noble said:
The original is by Robert Earl Keene. I have both versions.

Hmmm didn’t know that?

Still nice song Ralph no matter whom is doing the version…

Cheers, old fardt in Ore-Gun


Darryl,

Here is Robert Earl doing the original.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glhrczA1ru4

#220

Ralph

My taste of music is probably not to good but I do prefer the Willie & crew’s version.

And the road will go on forever,

Till next time, cheers. The old fardt in Ore-Gun